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Old 09-13-2021, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 78w72 View Post
with all the mentions of 200r's on this thread & quite a few guys saying they run one... have any of you had any problems or reliability issues behind mild built 400/455s? i know the 200r can be built to handle a lot of power, look at the fast buick GN guys & most are still using the 200r, but i read on here recently from one guy that said they are absolute junk & will blow up if you look at them wrong...
LOL you had to go there

There are quite a few of us here that have done enough overdrive swaps with various setups that can comment on how they like it and what worked or what didn't. Steve loves his 200 and it's worked very well behind his 505 for years.
I've been talking to Dave off the forum about 4l80 swaps as we were both doing one at the same time, and he had a hell of a time with 700's in his car. Now completely thrilled with the 4L80E.
I'm more of a stick shift overdrive fan and have done a ton of those. When it comes to auto overdrives, for anything with some power, I like my 4L80E and never considered anything else for this car. I'm more of an electronic transmission fan when it comes to auto overdrives because it allows me more precise control of everything, including lockup functions so I tend to steer away from the TV cable stuff, although it can be made to work well. Part of the reason that Art Carr, and Steve mentioned this, they don't like running the lockup converters in a performance application is because it's very difficult to gain precise control of the lockup function with very little adjustability, and won't play well with engines that have rambunctious camshafts. With the 4L80E I can lock the converter at any point in the rpm range, throttle position, and speed that I want, giving me complete control of it, even including how harsh I want it to engage.

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  #42  
Old 09-13-2021, 05:34 PM
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LOL you had to go there

There are quite a few of us here that have done enough overdrive swaps with various setups that can comment on how they like it and what worked or what didn't. Steve loves his 200 and it's worked very well behind his 505 for years.
I've been talking to Dave off the forum about 4l80 swaps as we were both doing one at the same time, and he had a hell of a time with 700's in his car. Now completely thrilled with the 4L80E.
I'm more of a stick shift overdrive fan and have done a ton of those. When it comes to auto overdrives, for anything with some power, I like my 4L80E. I'm more of an electronic transmission fan when it comes to auto overdrives because it allows me more precise control of everything, including lockup functions.
yeah but its a legit question. the recent comments had me a little worried but i know better. ive always considered a 200r for its easy swap into 2nd gens & have heard of many doing it with great results, even in higher HP cars. i would have pursued it on my recent TH400 car build but i had a brand new TCI th400 from a previous project that didnt happen so i used that to keep costs down.

i agree the 4l80 is the best choice for OD nowadays but the 200r has been the go to for at least 20 some years & for the most part they work great when set up right. & ive personally seen a GN run in the 9's with the turbo V6 & 200r & there are all kinds of them out there doing 10's with ease. im sure the 200 has its limits like all things do but they are far from junk as some claim.

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Old 09-13-2021, 05:44 PM
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yeah but its a legit question. the recent comments had me a little worried but i know better. ive always considered a 200r for its easy swap into 2nd gens & have heard of many doing it with great results, even in higher HP cars. i would have pursued it on my recent TH400 car build but i had a brand new TCI th400 from a previous project that didnt happen so i used that to keep costs down.

i agree the 4l80 is the best choice for OD nowadays but the 200r has been the go to for at least 20 some years & for the most part they work great when set up right. & ive personally seen a GN run in the 9's with the turbo V6 & 200r & there are all kinds of them out there doing 10's with ease. im sure the 200 has its limits like all things do but they are far from junk as some claim.
I'm just pokin fun

I think what has really driven the 200's to be popular among the BOP crowd is because that trans is offered with multi bells (BOP bolt patterns) making them a pretty easy bolt in. The other reason is their relatively small size fitting within the confines of the stock cross member. Pontiac guys have been swapping them going back into the late 1980's as far as I can remember. So it's been going on for a long time.

I lived down the street from Lonnie (Extreme Automatics) and there were some 8 second GN's running around with his transmissions. I've seen what those guys put them through with trans brakes and wheels up launches so I'm a believer that in the right hands they can be built to last. I also like the gear ratios they offer.

For me, since I was running a 400 turbo already, and being a Chevrolet anyway, the 4L80E was where I wanted to go. Electronic control was a big motivation for it as I wanted to leave the car in drive, program what I want and concentrate on driving the car at the track more consistently. The overdrive of course was the other motivation, allowing me to cruise now with the 4.10's like they aren't even back there.

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  #44  
Old 09-13-2021, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
I'm just pokin fun

I think what has really driven the 200's to be popular among the BOP crowd is because that trans is offered with multi bells (BOP bolt patterns) making them a pretty easy bolt in. The other reason is their relatively small size fitting within the confines of the stock cross member. Pontiac guys have been swapping them going back into the late 1980's as far as I can remember. So it's been going on for a long time.

I lived down the street from Lonnie (Extreme Automatics) and there were some 8 second GN's running around with his transmissions. I've seen what those guys put them through with trans brakes and wheels up launches so I'm a believer that in the right hands they can be built to last. I also like the gear ratios they offer.

For me, since I was running a 400 turbo already, and being a Chevrolet anyway, the 4L80E was where I wanted to go. Electronic control was a big motivation for it as I wanted to leave the car in drive, program what I want and concentrate on driving the car at the track more consistently. The overdrive of course was the other motivation, allowing me to cruise now with the 4.10's like they aren't even back there.
i know you are. & i know you are aware of the 200 bashing comments im referring to. i was just curious what the ones that commented here with 200rs thought.

yeah early 90's is when i read about using them in 2nd gens in pontiac performance magazine articles.

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Old 09-13-2021, 08:08 PM
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I can highly recommend the Bowtie Overdrives TV and Throttle Cable SYSTEMS


http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/



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  #46  
Old 09-14-2021, 07:02 AM
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as with many things..."In the right hands" a 200 can and will survive the MONSTER torque(that thing that BREAKS stuff) of a poncho! There are only a handful of folks that I would spend money with to get those results and it aint XXXXX down at AAMCO.....just saying.
The 4l80 is in a nutshell a 4 speed th400 only slight mods needed to do big things.

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Old 09-14-2021, 08:57 AM
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78W72 – LOL touchy subject for many. I run a 2004R stage 2 from Extreme Automatics behind a 455 with about 575 each of TQ and HP. Two seasons now and absolutely no issues. I push it but have not run my car on a track, but from the performance so far, I am not worried about doing runs. From my TH400, the shifting is also vastly improved. On the highway dropped 500 rpm, which is why I went OD. I researched the heck out of this and there is a fear factor out there. For that reason, I went straight to Lonnie out of the gate. My understanding is the difference from behind a Grand National is the big TQ numbers the 400-455 has. This is just for info from my experience, and definitely not an opinion. Plus it slapped straight into my F-Body with same drive shaft, cross member etc. Easy peasy.

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Old 09-14-2021, 09:34 AM
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yes the torque is an issue of the big cube pontiacs but for a stock'ish 455 or even a well built 400 street motor a goood 200r like from a GN or SS monte etc will usually be ok if not beaten & abused, thats what they were doing back in the 90's before shops like EA & art carr were beefing them up like today. performance pontiac had quite a few articles on doing the 200r swap & said you wanted a good one from a GN etc & in stock form they did great for the most part.

obviously today they should be build to handle the power of the engine & set up right, or just go 4l80. for now im content with my th400 & lower number gears, 3.23 are manageable for all but long interstate trips, which i dont plan on taking in this car. & i have another "slow" t/a with 3.08s if i felt the need to take a long trip on interstates with 70-80mph speed limits.

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Old 09-14-2021, 09:47 AM
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My 200-4R was built 14 years ago by a well known builder of transmissions for high-performance applications involving Buick GN racing. And as eluded to in the conversations here it was very expensive ! With that transmission my 505 engine started making 600 ft.lbs torque at around 4000 rpm and carried 600+ ft.lbs up thru 5700 rpm. At peak torque rpm it had 640 ft.lbs. About one year after it went into operation I had some slipping in 3rd gear, the trans came out for a simple repair (adjustment?). While the transmission was out I had it converted to a non-lock up torque converter. For reasons eluded to here in the thread I personally DID NOT like using a lock up torque converter ! With the 505 and the 200-4R transmission my car has been to the track only a few times for interest only to see how deep into the 10s it could run, it is now street use only. There has been no issues with the transmission in the last 13+ years.


..


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  #50  
Old 09-14-2021, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by 78w72 View Post
; for now im content with my th400 & lower number gears, 3.23 are manageable for all but long interstate trips, which i dont plan on taking in this car. & i have another "slow" t/a with 3.08s if i felt the need to take a long trip on interstates with 70-80mph speed limits.
That's how I have my 70 Formula set up and I honestly have no intention of overdriving that one. I find it perfectly fine for long trips and we routinely use it just for that. I run a 28" tire on it which helps, and it'll cruise fine at 70 mph for hours and still knock down 17 mpg. I have a ton of fun drag racing this car as well, and because of the gear it doesn't set the world on fire, but it's respectable and still fun. So I have nothing at all against a 400 turbo and very mild rear gears that are highway friendly. Of course with an overdrive it would do everything better but I'm pretty content with this one to just leave it alone. I actually use it as my main transportation as my wife uses the 69Z. When I have errands or someplace to go, I jump in the bird.

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Old 09-14-2021, 11:44 AM
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That's how I have my 70 Formula set up and I honestly have no intention of overdriving that one. I find it perfectly fine for long trips and we routinely use it just for that. I run a 28" tire on it which helps, and it'll cruise fine at 70 mph for hours and still knock down 17 mpg. I have a ton of fun drag racing this car as well, and because of the gear it doesn't set the world on fire, but it's respectable and still fun. So I have nothing at all against a 400 turbo and very mild rear gears that are highway friendly. Of course with an overdrive it would do everything better but I'm pretty content with this one to just leave it alone. I actually use it as my main transportation as my wife uses the 69Z. When I have errands or someplace to go, I jump in the bird.
yes 27.5-28" tall tires her too. 70mph on long trips seems excessive to me but im sure its not a real concern, the headers & 3" exhaust make it sound worse than it is.

my 81 turbo t/a with 3.08s does fine at 70, i actually drove that home from tucson to iowa when i bought it in the late 90's, drove as good as any other modern car of that era & didnt skip a beat for 1500+ miles. now it & my other 2 are just fair weather drivers, i have a modern SUV with A/C & 21+ mpg for daily driver use.

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Old 09-14-2021, 11:52 AM
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yes 27.5-28" tall tires her too. 70mph on long trips seems excessive to me but im sure its not a real concern, the headers & 3" exhaust make it sound worse than it is.

my 81 turbo t/a with 3.08s does fine at 70, i actually drove that home from tucson to iowa when i bought it in the late 90's, drove as good as any other modern car of that era & didnt skip a beat for 1500+ miles. now it & my other 2 are just fair weather drivers, i have a modern SUV with A/C & 21+ mpg for daily driver use.
We don't even own a new car anymore. Sold that stuff years ago and rely on the classics for transportation now. The Z gets 21 mpg with it's 5 speed so it's a pretty nice long distance runner. None of them have AC though, been going without that for years.
I do have a 16 year old duramax that I use for towing or hauling (everyone needs a truck). Not a daily though, and most of the time it sits, sometimes for months at a time. We are just happier driving the old cars.

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Old 09-14-2021, 01:51 PM
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We don't even own a new car anymore. Sold that stuff years ago and rely on the classics for transportation now. The Z gets 21 mpg with it's 5 speed so it's a pretty nice long distance runner. None of them have AC though, been going without that for years.
I do have a 16 year old duramax that I use for towing or hauling (everyone needs a truck). Not a daily though, and most of the time it sits, sometimes for months at a time. We are just happier driving the old cars.
im in iowa so daily driving classics isnt an option with our horrible winters. you are lucky in AZ to be able to do that. & our summers are like florida lately! terrible humidity even in the mid 80's temps, just standing outside you get all sticky & sweaty in 2 minutes! i never had a/c in my teenage & 20's years & did fine, the T-tops were a big help in my 78 t/a back then though, but today at almost 50 i prefer a/c on the bad summer days but laugh when i see all the people with their windows up & ac on when its in the 70's. & like a truck, there are many times i need/use an SUV for towing & utility purposes, i have a couple friends with trucks when i need that.

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Old 09-14-2021, 03:28 PM
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I still daily drove classics when I lived in Ohio, I just kept a ratty one in the stable for the nasty days When that rusted beyond repair I'd buy another one.

On the nice days I still used the bird a lot. Wife still drove a classic back and forth to work for a long time, either a vette or what ever we played with at the time. Wasn't until around 2000 when she wanted something new, but that lasted till about 2007 when she was sick of that, wanted to get away from all the electronics and gadgets and went back to a classic, been there ever since.

Wasn't until maybe 15 years ago when I really got into swapping overdrives into the classics, which we quickly found that made them so much more enjoyable, especially on a daily basis. Now even the weekend toys are getting overdrives. Been driving my Chevelle with 4.10's for 35 years and just now got around to putting a 4L80E in it. Every single time I do that, no matter what the car, I always say to myself, I should have done that a long time ago. LOL

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Old 09-15-2021, 12:56 PM
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this is a handy tool . it has many popular trans. in calculator

https://www.tremec.com/calculadora.php

modern trans , have a much lower 1st gear set than old 4 speeds and auto. keep that in mind .

i always tried to match the gear so rolling through the 1/4 engine would be at max rpm. with that and a O.D. trans you could match you gear set to running through 1/4 in 4th . that would let you have 5 or 6th for highway

I have a Z06 with a 6 speed . I really dont like 6th gear much it just kills the power

  #56  
Old 09-15-2021, 01:02 PM
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this is a example of my 70 T/A with a 496 roller motor and the choice I made

TKO-600 2.87 - .82
Engine RPM :
5500
Enter your desired RPM for racing or cruising here.
Axle Ratio :
3.55
Enter your rear axle ratio here.
Tire Height (in) :
26
Enter your tire height here. Use the Aspect Ratio calculator below if you do not know your tire height.
Ratio MPH
1st Gear
2.87
41.76
The estimated speed you will be traveling based on the parameters you established and the transmission you selected.
2nd Gear
1.89
63.41
3rd Gear
1.28
93.62

4th Gear
1.00
119.84

5th Gear
.82
146.14

6th Gear

TREMEC ASPECT RATIO CALCULATOR: Find your tire height using this calculator.

  #57  
Old 09-15-2021, 02:07 PM
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I selected the wrong trans. this is the one I'm using

TKO-600 2.87 - .64
Engine RPM :
5500
Enter your desired RPM for racing or cruising here.
Axle Ratio :
3.55
Enter your rear axle ratio here.
Tire Height (in) :
26
Enter your tire height here. Use the Aspect Ratio calculator below if you do not know your tire height.
Ratio MPH
1st Gear
2.87
41.76
The estimated speed you will be traveling based on the parameters you established and the transmission you selected.
2nd Gear
1.89
63.41
3rd Gear
1.28
93.62

4th Gear
1.00
119.84

5th Gear
.64
187.25

6th Gear

  #58  
Old 09-15-2021, 02:50 PM
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The .64 looks like the better choice with good highway rpm cruising.

The .82 you'd have to spin 2800 rpm on the highway just to barely reach the speed limit out here, 75 mph. That's going to be noisy, lots of wear/tear, and will suck down the mpg.

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  #59  
Old 09-15-2021, 03:03 PM
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yes that the trans I got. .64

if you change the rpm to say 2000 look at 4 gear 1 to 1

I wanted to not have to shift into 5th at drags...im thinking the car should go through at say 5500 to 5800 say 120 or so in 4th

This calculator lets you play with different combinations


Last edited by dld; 09-15-2021 at 03:10 PM.
  #60  
Old 09-15-2021, 03:20 PM
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I like it.

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