[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by tc

Maybe you just need a higher stall torque converter to bring the rpm's up when you start from zero mph. I doubt you are going to get anyone to agree with you about advancing that cam to move the power band lower, to gain more power.

Did I buy the wrong TC, should I have gone with the smaller diameter, perhaps I should have started this thread before I bought the Hughes one .Here is were I am now : first I shopped Summit and they tried to sell me a Hughes # GM 20 BPO 400 BP , I cancelled that deal and shopped more and found this : ACC PERFORMANCE - Through Boss Hog # 46022 street bandit with 10" diameter, that is supposed to give me an extra 35 HP, I did not buy it because there was only 90 day Warranty . Next I went directly to Hughes so I can speak to any one who could answer my questions. At that time I thought I might have a Switch Pitch converter, turns out to be negative on that idea. Hughes said the 10" converter will run to hot in my 428 ci Th 400 and Gear Vendors application. So they sell me this: GM 20 BPO HD 400 BP AND TELL ME THIS TC can BE USED IN A (RV) application. This is the Heavy Duty version of the one Summit almost sold me on. Since this is my first TC I have ever purchased The question is "will a 10" TC run to hot in my application or have I yet again been miss informed by a salesman?"

[tc]

I'd like to help on the converter selection, but I only have experience on two converters that I have used, both 10" units. The not good one was in my Firebird when I purchased the car. Took a lot of gas pedal to move the car from a stop, stalled very high and had a lot of converter slip. The good one is a Continental brand that is not made anymore. Will move the car at idle, stalls at 3400 rpm, don't remember the slip percent.

I have a deep pan on the t-400 for extra fluid. I don't do extended highway driving, normally just 30 minutes, but have driven an hour and a half at a time. The trans temp gauge looks normal even though cruise rpm is 2500.

There are people on this forum who have Hughes converters and Cliff R may still sell TSP converters.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...rchid=15294523

[Stuart]

I took the liberty of some editing, and removed some off-topic responses to streamline the discussion. Hopefully it make it easier for Mike to get answers to his questions.

[Tom Vaught]

Thank You Stuart.
Tom V.

[tc]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

The question is "will a 10" TC run to hot in my application or have I yet again been miss informed by a salesman?"

First, X2 on the Thank you Stuart. You are a special person to do all that work, probably for free, on your own time, showing you care for people. Would be a good sticky to show the original first post compared to your version.

As for the converter, my guess is that the company does not want to sell a converter that stalls higher than highway cruise rpm, to not have any complaints. You may have to spend more $$$ for a better converter with a higher stall than cruise rpm's.

Also, you stated that at 80 mph, your tach reads 3000 rpm's. I would think the engine would be at 2600-2700. I think your tach may be incorrect. Try this calculator:

.http://www.wallaceracing.com/calc-gear-tire-rpm-mph.php

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

I just joined the forum. I've received good information here in the past, thank you .

I own a 1979 Pontiac Trans Am with a 1967 Pontiac 428HO tripower engine, TH400 transmission and Gear Vendors overdrive, B&M shifter, working air induction, Herb Adams suspension, posi-traction with 4 wheel disc brakes, roll bar throughout the cab, trunk and motor compartment, never raced. There is more, but that should be enough to give people an idea what I have so they may help me with this decision.

The question is, I pulled out the worn used cam but I liked the way it worked. Not knowing better I put in the Melling #8 (or Pontiac 041) cam. The vehicle has top end performance in the upper range. I would like to bring the power range back where it is useful as a weekend driver. The original cam number is 524886, and even though this cam was worn out and I was bending a push rod at 130 mph because the rocker bolt was split and I had just got this second hand project in a non running form, I liked the way it would get up to say 90 mph and launch to 120 mph and then slowly get to 130 mph. It is the perfect cam. The secondaries, kick down, cam and converter all worked as Pontiac invented it.

Back to the 041 cam. I had delusions of grandeur that I wanted to have the upper end speed over and above 130 mph. I then learned the Cooper GT tires are only rated to 80 mph, so over a four year period, running at times up to 130 mph the tires one by one would separate from the misuse I inflicted on them. I am now back to earth and grounded in the fact that this air conditioned vehicle is never going to race on the salt flats. I now have the 041 cam installed and broken in, and I am trying a Comp Cams timing chain set that is adjustable at the crank. I installed the 041 cam a few years ago straight up as Melling said to, and it runs as it should.

I have the option to advance the cam timing 8 degrees at the crank and at the cam it will be 4 degrees. Please keep in mind I took this project on 7 or 8 years ago, and it's been 3 steps forward and 2 steps back. In my reading I've learned that one can bring the high end power range within a cam back from the top end to the lower end to launch the vehicle as if I were racing. Each advance degree would be equal to about 500 rpm of the power range, so 4 degrees will be moving the power range back 2000 rpm in average terms (500 rpm x 4 degrees at the cam).

Please don't quote me on this, because I am depending on memory of what people write. I am trying to discern who is telling the truth compared to who is knowledgeable or not, and who is speculating. First and foremost, before I start this motor with the cam advanced as much as I stated, I must know if it is safe and that I will not hurt the motor? Secondly, I am figuring that the intake has 230 degrees duration at 0.050" and the power range is from 2500 rpm to 6000 rpm. The exhaust is 240 degrees duration and the power range is between 3000 and 6500 rpm. The intake peaks at 3500 rpm and the exhaust peaks at 4000 rpm.

This is what I learned over the net: the 041 cam in my 4000 lb vehicle moves in a steady acceleration from stand still to top end and just goes like it will pass 130 mph, but there is no jaw dropping fun with the. the original 524886 cam could not exceed 120 mph, as it fell on its face after throwing me back in my seat between 90 mph and 120 mph. I thought about replacing the 041 cam with one that has the same specs as the original. I like the duration of the 014 cam, plus the lift is 0.470 using 1.5 rocker ratio. Since the 428ci engine can handle the 041 better than a 400ci engine, I might as well try the advance trick.

This new Comp Cam timing chain set can be set to 1-2-3-4-degrees at the cam and that's 2-4-6-8- degrees at the crank. Presently i am at 4 degrees at the cam. Will I be overdoing the cam timing or can I hurt the engine by over-advancing the timing chain using 4 degrees advance without installing a set of 1.6 rockers? Is that as far as I can go without doing some modification at the base of the dual springs?

Keep in mind this is a stock engine with a new timing chain and gears. The lifters went in around 7000 miles ago, with new chrome molly HD pushrods that were installed with the cam along with new Johnson hydraulic lifters. Also at that time I installed a new oil pump, and stronger rocker arm studs/nuts/washers for adjustable factory settings for lash. The engine has a strong bottom end and no head leaks. There are the original splash shields under the valve covers.

The 1966 GTO tripower intake and Rochester carbs have new rebuild kits with new power pistons, jets, inner screens, discharge tubes, anti-perculation aerators (they have the holes in brass to break down fuel molecules for better atomization.) The ram air pan is sealed to the bottom of the hood so all you get is cool outside air to the motor. This keeps the fuel with alcohol from percolating and causing a vapor lock. I installed a HD temperature clutch fan and a extra side kick fan. I then installed an electric pusher fan out front of the radiator, and a special thermostat with 3 by pass holes. The head crossovers for the choke are covered so no heat gets under the center carb.

i pulled the intake off and put phenolic over the valley pan and under the intake, to help block engine heat from the bottom of the carbs. I followed instructions on line to modify the water pump to lower the clearance. When I installed the a/c, the engine temperature went up 30 degrees, so I wrapped the fuel bowls with insulation and added phenolics under the bowls to keep excess heat from getting to the fuel bowls. The metal lines to each carburetor are also wrapped with heat wrap.

I have 4 remote oil coolers. Two of them are using 3/4 " copper pipe a few feet long, along with two transmission coolers, plus I just added a remote oil filter. There is also a power steering cooler and filter. I’m running an MSD box and a super coil. The only option I don't have installed is the cruise control although I do have all the parts.

Recently, I broke the torque converter, so I bought a 12” HD monster that will move a large RV. I just installed a B&M transmission kit, and cleaned out all the valves in the valve body. I added a new vacuum modulator and cleaned the governor.

The car is lowered 2" with Belltech drop spindles in the front and Herb Adams leaf springs in the rear. It has larger diameter anti sway bars and Koni shocks. I only use fuel without alcohol so the boiling point of the unleaded is higher than alcohol fuel by 10 degrees to avoid percolation.

Over the years i have done the wrong fixes first and learned what the major fixes are toward the middle and toward the end. This is my first build. Hopefully you have enough information to help me make the best decision for this project.

Thanks
Michael

Thank you for your help from Mike

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by tc

First, X2 on the Thank you Stuart. You are a special person to do all that work, probably for free, on your own time, showing you care for people. Would be a good sticky to show the original first post compared to your version.

As for the converter, my guess is that the company does not want to sell a converter that stalls higher than highway cruise rpm, to not have any complaints. You may have to spend more $$$ for a better converter with a higher stall than cruise rpm's.

Also, you stated that at 80 mph, your tach reads 3000 rpm's. I would think the engine would be at 2600-2700. I think your tach may be incorrect. Try this calculator:

.http://www.wallaceracing.com/calc-gear-tire-rpm-mph.php

Reply from Mike : When I am not in overdrive with the Gear vendors the car cruses at 500 rpm lower , then I turn on the Auto switch and press the button on the shifter and overdrive or forth gear goes from about 2500 to 3000 rpm .

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Reply from Mike : When I am not in overdrive with the Gear vendors the car cruses at 500 rpm lower , then I turn on the Auto switch and press the button on the shifter and overdrive or forth gear goes from about 2500 to 3000 rpm .

Mike,

Overdrive lowers RPM's. Underdrive (for quicker taking off) raises RPM's

Clay

[slowbird]

If you have a good trans cool it really doesn't matter what you cruise rpm is vs the stall.
Heck we towed our 65GTO with our 69GP fow years with a 3800stall converter cruising down the high at 3200-3300. Never had a single issue with the converter or trans. But we did have the largest cooler we could find on it.

[Steve C.]

Stacked plate cooler design.

https://www.earls.com.au/product-cat...ssion-coolers/


.

[tc]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Reply from Mike : When I am not in overdrive with the Gear vendors the car cruses at 500 rpm lower , then I turn on the Auto switch and press the button on the shifter and overdrive or forth gear goes from about 2500 to 3000 rpm .

If this is the way you are using the Gear Vendors, then turn on the autoshift/press button and see how the car accelerates from a stop.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Since I installed the "041" cam and ran in manual shift from first to second to third revving out the rpm to under 5000 rpm the vehicle accelerated in a linear constant steady increase in speed ,the kick down did not engage and the secondaries were hardly felt. When I used the Gear vendors the same way but splitting gears I was able to revv each extra gear better but it was just as linear as before. The "041" gives me a top end above 130 while the former cam # 524886 was made for Tri-power( specifically or so I red) and It was the only cam to be designated such. The cam # 524886 would go from a rolling say 60 mph, floor it at 90 mph, throw me back in the seat and reach 120 and then move linear to 130 and that is it.Why was the cam # 524886 designated Tri-power only in the Pontiac records. Think about it , those engineers new and Tested over and over to come to that conclusion. I also red that the Armasteel crank is better than the forged crank because of the twist it can take with out breaking that the forged crank can't take.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

I am using the heat exchanger in the radiator first then an air cooled secondary one in the front air stream. I just installed a remote Trans. filter for extra filtration of Trans fluid. I have a Temperature gauge installed, I run at 160-180 degrees F . I installed that and the Gear Vendors computer in the arm rest glove box of my 1979 Pontiac TA. The oil filter is also remote and travels through the donut adapter too several additional air coolers. and I use two 3/4" cooper tubes about 2' long under the front air dam area to assist through( convection to air) inline routing back to the engine. Motor temperature is 170-180 and goes up while running the a/c. I installed a heavy duty temperature activated clutch fan for a truck and that helped along with a special thermostat drilled with three by pass holes. The Power steering uses a small cooler and a filter.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

My van has a cooler on it for towing my car hauler or Boat and the RV came with one also.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Nice parts I downloaded the site for the future , thank you .

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by slowbird

If you have a good transmission cooler, it really doesn't matter what your cruise rpm is vs the stall speed.
Heck we towed our 65 GTO with our 69 GP for years with a 3800 rpm stall speed converter cruising down the high way at 3200-3300 rpm. Never had a single issue with the converter or trans. But we did have the largest cooler we could find on it.

Mikes answer to this : "How does the car drive on the road with a high stall speed converter when your not towing". Seems like you would have to almost launch at each light. In the start when I got this second hand project car running for the first time the TH 400 must have been dirty inside. Because I had to drain the fluid and change the filter 3 times and 500 miles to get it to work like a common vehicle. Once I experienced that the Transmission had the potential to operate without going to 3500 rpm to shift . Originally, I thought that the B+M shift kit was supposed shift like it was up in the 3500 rpm range . I felt like I was racing from light to light. Then one cool morning it worked like a passenger car . Then I new it had the potential to work correctly. I kept changing the filter and fluid for a few years and one day the trans was fixed. It lasted 5 more years never giving me any trouble. Recently I ran over a Tree Root under an asphalt driveway. Because the car is lowered I broke the Torque Converter . Now I was sold on this Hughes one that I bought and I have no recourse but to try it and see how it and the new advance setting of the cam act like . I chose 6 degrees at the crank for 3 degrees at the cam plus the cam had 1.5 degrees all-ready built in so 113.5 - 4.5 = 109 LSA. With out degreeing the cam yet. I will be at a hypothetical 109 LSA which is a "proven to work setting". Presently we are re-building the wire harness under the hood and painting the engine while we are deep into the timing. This 1979 TA has the 1976 front and rear clip. So the engine I make look like the year it was born( 1967 428 ci) and the vehicle looks like a 1976 Pontiac Trans am with the "T"-tops. Since I removed the Tri-power Rochester carbs. I will purchase the Eastwood Cadmium paint kit and give them the old school look to.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Administrator: I had in the 90 plus posts in this forum post. You shut down the Thread and now I am missing about 15 posts . Are you able to post them back, so I can continue this thread please? . Michael. Otherwise ,This concludes this thread if any one was still interested.

[Will]

The solution to your problem is to change the cam. If you don't want to do that, then install Rhoads lifters - they will make a BIG difference. Good luck with any other band-aid approach.

And yes, you should degree the cam and get the ICL as close as possible to where the manufacturer recommends it. Advancing it may just lose you power, not necessarily shift the powerband the way you want.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

The solution to your problem is to change the cam. If you don't want to do that, then install Rhoads lifters - they will make a BIG difference. Good luck with any other band-aid approach.

And yes, you should degree the cam and get the ICL as close as possible to where the manufacturer recommends it. Advancing it may just lose you power, not necessarily shift the power band the way you want. Mikes answer to this statement: I decided that after speaking to some people at least two said the gain in power for a street driven car like this is not worth the noise created by the Rhoads lifters. We all want more but I would rather listen to the rumble the motor makes now . I was told I will loose some of the throaty sound as well using Rhoads lifters. I am painting the motor and rebuilding the wire harness and giving the motor compartment a make over. I must get the Torque converter into this vehicle as that I demolished it going over a bump in a drive way that could not have been avoided. I have spent the last 4 months learning about Transmission in stead of running out to buy one and luckily I learned that it was the Torque converter. Most might have listened to others but not me . I won't throw out 2-3 grand out the window. I used to be a parts changer , not any more. As usually you and others are correct and degreeing the cam is the way to go. I went from 8 degrees and backed it off to 6 degrees at the crank. I should be at the 109 some one told me who tested these numbers on the track . The forum member has the" 041 " cam in a 428 ci motor as well. Once I see this Transmission and new Torque converter operating then I can make the decision to go back to the former cam . First thing first is to make sure I have no other problems. I usually make one move at a time so I no what fixes something. Now the trans. is apart the timing chain and gear just went back in. I put a new B+M shift kit in the valve body. Cleaned the valve body and this is all new to me . Adjusted the bands with shims in the TH 400. Cleaned out the small screen to the Governor plus pulled it and inspected it and it was fine. Replaced the Vacuum Modulator. Replaced the trans filter, added 3 bottles of trans fix it and ran 4 gallons of fluid through the Trans. and old TC. Ran 300 miles testing and tuning until the vehicle stopped completely. Then I pulled the TC , had no choice. Learned A TON OF KNOWLEDGE ALONG THE WAY . THE MOTOR AND THIS ENTIRE PROJECT HAS BEEN 3 STEPS FORWARD AND 2 STEPS BACK. ALL THE WORK IS DONE BY MY ROOMMATE AND SINCE I AM DISABLED I DO ALL THE RESEARCH. Most likely I will revert to a cam similar to the original but for now I want to see this vehicle roll on its own. Just prier to the damage to the TC the trans . started to hunt from first to second then to third. over the next month it happened a little more frequently. The cleaning should have solved that issue. When I bought this car it had never been run . The trans. needed a filter change 3 times and took two years before it cleaned itself out and ran great for 5 years now. Had I not ran over the root under a paved drive way this Trans. would work good. I have a curve kit to install yet and I am using a MSD with a 5k limiter we installed as not to over rev. the engine. I have never degreed this cam but when I change to another cam I will purchase the equipment. The only thing I can ask is this . Am I safe to start this motor with the small advance I made or am I just not possibly going to obtain lightning warp speed?

[zippy]

I am degreeing this exact cam in my 455 right now. Melling CP 8 Trying to get to Cliff's 109. It has 113.5 out of the box, straight up. Well MINE does. Doesn't mean yours will. 112 is spec, So it's close. I made a key, Closest I can get with the key blanks I have here is 103. I am running a gear drive with no extra keyways. Kinda sux but I like the noise. Not sure how much I'll notice those 4 other degrees. 470cid, 10.6:1 comp, crower cam saver lifters. I Have run Rhoads lots in past, but I prefer the lope. When it's hot and the oil thins, and the idle goes silky smooth, Yuck LOL