[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Totally different application for the helmet. Navy Jet vs Drag Racing.

You rarely run into guard rails or concrete walls in a jet.
You might run into another aircraft on the carrier if your plane is shot up.
Most would say flying on a carrier, if properly trained is less dangerous vs a 200 mph
drag car. So I would say your example needs work. A lot of work.

Tom V.

You think a helmet is unsafe because a tag expires?

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Totally different application for the helmet. Navy Jet vs Drag Racing.

You rarely run into guard rails or concrete walls in a jet.
You might run into another aircraft on the carrier if your plane is shot up.
Most would say flying on a carrier, if properly trained is less dangerous vs a 200 mph
drag car. So I would say your example needs work. A lot of work.



Tom V.

Hi Tom, my example needs no work as it's not an example, it's a factual story.

Here's another factual story for you... A wharehouse I order speed parts from puts some seat belts on sale manufactured by a major supplier. I purchase a set and the official NHRA certified expiration date is just about to expire on the new belts because it's been sitting on the shelf in the wharehouse for nearly two years. I call the manufacturer and am told to send them in and they will put put new tags on them, they do it all the time. Now did my seat belt get safer since they sewed a new tag on it or was it really not any less safe because the tag may have expired?

[Tom Vaught]

No I think a helmet that looks brand new and has a expired tag says the owner of the helmet made a lot of quarter mile runs or it sat on the shelf or in the trailer a bunch of the time.

I think the rule makers should have a process where the helmet in sent in for testing every 5 years and if it passes the testing it gets a new certification.
Much like a drivers license on the street (but one year added in this case).

No tickets, you get a new license, no wear and tear on the helmet (and it passes a physical inspection) and you get a new cert for another 5 years.

Kind of like a hunter who buys a rifle and maybe never fires it at a deer and the rifle
is 10 years old. If it wasn't dropped out of a tree stand, or scratched up, then the rifle
is in Like New Condition. To say something is Like New in the gun world means a Licensed Gun Smith signs off on the weapon.

Hopefully you understand that example.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Hi Tom, my example needs no work as it's not an example, it's a factual story.

Here's another factual story for you... A wharehouse I order speed parts from puts some seat belts on sale manufactured by a major supplier. I purchase a set and the official NHRA certified expiration date is just about to expire on the new belts because it's been sitting on the shelf in the wharehouse for nearly two years. I call the manufacturer and am told to send them in and they will put put new tags on them, they do it all the time. Now did my seat belt get safer since they sewed a new tag on it or was it really not any less safe because the tag may have expired?

Thanks for a perfect example in racing of what I posted the hunter example.
Get it re-certified and you are good to go.
There is a process in place unless you don't have the cash or desire to send it in. Your last post gives an example that fits.

Tom V.

[Elarson]

I too feel the sting of expired safety equipment. I had to abandon a $1200+ funny car helmet because of the date. But here's the other side of the story:

2-year expiration for seat belts is probably because of the NHRA lawyers fear of being sued because some idiot gets hurt using damaged belts. Not much can happen in 2 years so that's the overly-conservative approach.

Newer helmet certifications are claimed to be more stringent than the previous ones. The outdated helmet hasn't deteriorated but it hasn't been tested to the new stricter spec.

FWIW,
Eric

[Tom Vaught]

Thank You Eric.
Tom V.

[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by Elarson

Newer helmet certifications are claimed to be more stringent than the previous ones. The outdated helmet hasn't deteriorated but it hasn't been tested to the new stricter spec.

FWIW,
Eric

This, to me, is the more interesting topic relating to this discussion. I agree that helmets don't typically degrade to any meaningful degree if they are not otherwise damaged during use (there have been studies demonstrating as much with other types of helmets), but the safety certification processes evolve and hopefully become more difficult to pass.

Personally, since I use my auto helmet on the road course, they're typically done by around year 5 for me. The pads get worn out, and they get a little ripe inside...

Don't get me started on harnesses, though... As a HPDE senior instructor, I get frustrated with organizations that won't let you use a slightly out of date 6-point race harness, but are totally okay with stock 3-point belts that have been baking in the sun for 30+ years.

[Stuart]

The thing is there are jillions of helmets out there, so it wouldn't be practical for Snell or some other authority to physically examine and re-certify each one, and they don't have any way of knowing how often a helmet is used, or if a person takes care of their helmet or if maybe they just leave it sitting out on the back porch in the sun and weather. So, they had to decide on some time period where the helmet is out of date. It may seem arbitrary, but they had to come up with a happy medium.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by ZeGermanHam

This, to me, is the more interesting topic relating to this discussion. Don't get me started on harnesses, though...

As a HPDE senior instructor, I get frustrated with organizations that won't let you use a slightly out of date 6-point race harness, but are totally okay with stock 3-point belts that have been baking in the sun for 30+ years.

That is because the 3 Point OEM Manufacturer's belts are certified to actual crash studies, and typically the vehicle never see loads on the seat belts that are anywhere near as high as the race car loads BECAUSE of the Air Bags designed in the vehicles. Air Bags do save lives. 64 GTOs were offered without seat belts and with seats that allowed Grandma to fly into the back of your seat and then drive you into the fixed steering wheel.

So 30 year old seat belts are still better vs the safety of a 64 GTO with passengers. PS no head rests either on that 64 GTO.

Tom V.

[Dragncar]

Its all about money. Follow the money.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Its all about money. Follow the money.

D'car you actually got one right! Keep up the good work

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Elarson

NHRA lawyers fear of being sued because some idiot gets hurt using damaged belts. Not much can happen in 2 years so that's the overly-conservative approach.


FWIW,
Eric

It is all about the money and nothing to do with safety. If it wasn't there is now way in Heck Professional Products would've been able to get an SFI certification for their Pontiac harmonic damper. No damper has blown apart as many times or has a better chance of doing so that this part and sales are helped because of it's SFI cert.


When it blows apart and bounces off some guys skull rather that chase down the folks that made it, the guys that endorsed it or the fellows that let it go down their track, they'll try their best to blame it on the person that installed it.

[PAUL K]

Dale Earnhardt's seat belt was currently certified at the time of his crash. All that certification did was make life Hell for a lot of folks that did absolutely nothing wrong. Never would've made a difference if the certification was current or not, it was just there for a legal loop hole.

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Dale Earnhardt's seat belt was currently certified at the time of his crash. All that certification did was make life Hell for a lot of folks that did absolutely nothing wrong. Never would've made a difference if the certification was current or not, it was just there for a legal loop hole.

My understanding of the Earnhardt crash was that the belts held fine but his head was sheared off his spine. That's the injury that head-and-neck restraints protect against. Ironically, really great belts that don't have much give, along with the weight of a helmet, aggravate this type of injury.

Eric

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by ZeGermanHam

Don't get me started on harnesses, though... As a HPDE senior instructor, I get frustrated with organizations that won't let you use a slightly out of date 6-point race harness, but are totally okay with stock 3-point belts that have been baking in the sun for 30+ years.

You are correct about the technical reality. But it's all about liability. I can guarantee you that somebody, somewhere took a mid-60's musclecar down the track this year with stock 55 year old belts. If they get injured/killed, NHRA isn't on the hooked because they didn't specify those belts. The OEM is off the hook because they never certified their street car for racing. Once you install NHRA-mandated belts, then NHRA, SFI and the belt manufacturer own the liability. It's CYA for them to require a really short inspection/replacement period.

I agree that the belt manufacturers make a nice profit off of this but I guarantee that NHRA doesn't give a sh*t about them. It's all about protecting themselves.

Eric

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Elarson

My understanding of the Earnhardt crash was that the belts held fine but his head was sheared off his spine. That's the injury that head-and-neck restraints protect against. Ironically, really great belts that don't have much give, along with the weight of a helmet, aggravate this type of injury.

Eric

Another agreement here. A Drag Racer on the east coast, about 15 years ago, during a testing session was also decapitated in an accident.

No seat belts in the world was going to save him when the guard rail sliced off the upper roof, the upper cage, and his head.

A Lot of people are throwing out examples that sound good but have errors in the actual event.

Your head might look just fine inside the bucket but your spine is no longer connected to it.

Tom V.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Elarson

My understanding of the Earnhardt crash was that the belts held fine but his head was sheared off his spine. That's the injury that head-and-neck restraints protect against. Ironically, really great belts that don't have much give, along with the weight of a helmet, aggravate this type of injury.

Eric

I heard the same thing. My point is the belt was "certified" and the manufacturer of the belt went through very tough times. They almost became non-existent. Several folks lost their livelihood and others lives changed forever... Yet they did nothing wrong and the belt was certified.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Another agreement here. A Drag Racer on the east coast, about 15 years ago, during a testing session was also decapitated in an accident.

No seat belts in the world was going to save him when the guard rail sliced off the upper roof, the upper cage, and his head.

A Lot of people are throwing out examples that sound good but have errors in the actual event.

Your head might look just fine inside the bucket but your spine is no longer connected to it.

Tom V.

Hi Tom, you should point that out to the folks that go after the belt manufacturer and ruin lives when they had absolutely nothing to do with the cause of death. The seat belts can be certified but still blamed even though they were not at fault. Can you imagine how worked up folks would be if, in the same situation the seat belts would've been out of certification and yet the outcome would be the same either way.

When the spine is sheared and the head is in the bucket does it matter if that bucket is certified or not.

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

I heard the same thing. My point is the belt was "certified" and the manufacturer of the belt went through very tough times. They almost became non-existent. Several folks lost their livelihood and others lives changed forever... Yet they did nothing wrong and the belt was certified.

I'm interested in knowing more detail if you have some. As usual, the media doesn't give much info. My recollection is that the belts were initially accused of failing and it was later revealed that the safety crew cut them apart. Is that accurate?

Eric

[JSchmitz]

I heard that Dale Earnhardt used to loosen his belts for comfort. Not sure of how true this is. This would allow his body to gain momentum and exacerbate the whiplash effect. Kinda like a hanging. It snaps your neck due to momentum etc.