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  #221  
Old 11-04-2015, 07:15 PM
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Oh, and for the record, the cheering had nothing to do with Jr. Nation - it was the right response from the regular Joe's at the track & me in my family room to an incident that was long in coming. If it had been the 2 car out in front of Kenseth the response would have been the same. They are both good drivers with good equipment and aggressive to a fault.

Yes there is a code in the garage, step over it or disregard it and you will get hit. It may not be this week, it may not be next but somebody is going to unload on you.

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  #222  
Old 11-05-2015, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by John V. View Post
I was gonna post the same thing yesterday but decided to delete it. I agree with you 100%.

Also, add that Kenseth clearly moved out to Logano's rear quarter right before the start/finish line and stayed there. Kenseth was the one giving no room, pinned Logano against the wall.

What the spotter was saying was meaningless. Kenseth was moments away from making premeditated contact. By the time he says "still down there" a 2nd or 3rd time Kenseth was already shoving him toward the wall.

Logano gave plenty of room to Kenseth, he was well above the inside line that Kenseth could have taken if he wanted to run 2 wide.

As Brad says, at some point Logano has to brake hard, slow, and turn or put himself into the wall and/or get freight trained by Gordon and the others running the inside while he slowed enough to negotiate that turn up against the wall. Kenseth simply was gonna pile drive him no matter what move he makes, no need for Kenseth's brakes or steering wheel at that point.

Ask yourself this, if Kenseth drives into that turn and does everything exactly as he did it, except there is no other car there, does Kenseth negotiate the turn or does he smack the wall? I think the answer is obvious.

The "tire went down" story was obviously premeditated as his crew chief was quick to radio that bit of hokum. Did it EVER go down? Not that I could see, even AFTER the incident ended. Clearly bogus and the ONLY way Kenseth could explain why his car went straight toward the wall when he SHOULD have been initiating his own turn, hard on the brakes and turning left.

I don't root for Kenseth or Logano one way or the other, I root for the 24 and was happy he didn't get caught up in it and got the win.

I didn't know about the KC incident and had just tuned in AFTER the prior restart incident so hadn't digested any of that.

When Kenseth pile drove Logano, I couldn't understand why the crowd began to cheer, I figured they weren't THAT happy that Gordon took the lead. And I didn't yet understand why they would cheer the intentional wrecking of Logano.

From my dispassionate view, there was absolutely no doubt what I had witnessed. I just didn't yet know why Kenseth did it.

Made for good entertainment but I had to agree with Logano, CS move. Kenseth had nothing to lose. If you're gonna retaliate like that, you should at least have something to gain and as much to lose as the guy you're wrecking. Kenseth gained nothing except the "satisfaction" of robbing Logano of a win.

The Champ, I agree with you on the 2 classes of racers. But I have felt that has been the case since the Chase began. The other drivers are out there just to fill the track.

I like the playoff style format. But how can the other drivers participate? Sure they can race for a win. But knowing they could ruin the championship chances of a Chaser, seems to me they have ALWAYS yielded to the Chasers since that format began. Probably same case when just 2 or 3 drivers entered the last race with a shot. Other drivers were not going to race them the same way they might if a championship wasn't at stake for those few. Or else, the champion pussy footed it just to get the finish he needed without racing for a win.

Maybe the last race should decide the championship, winner take all, with ALL drivers involved. No qualifying, set the grid based on the season points, top 43 get to play. And run it at Daytona 2 weeks after Homestead. That way nobody has to cede anything, all 43 starters have a shot. Wouldn't stop a guy from taking out somebody he didn't want to be champion. But would make the racing more aggressive with a lot more drivers going for the win. Might need to put it on a short track just to reduce the danger.

Probably wouldn't work any better than what they have now.
Good eye John, Logano was going to hit the wall no matter what he did, Kenseth was going to see to that.

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  #223  
Old 11-05-2015, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by John V. View Post
The Champ, I agree with you on the 2 classes of racers. But I have felt that has been the case since the Chase began. The other drivers are out there just to fill the track.

I like the playoff style format. But how can the other drivers participate? Sure they can race for a win. But knowing they could ruin the championship chances of a Chaser, seems to me they have ALWAYS yielded to the Chasers since that format began.
I also have felt that way since the Chase began. And it is the very reason that I dislike the Chase format so much.

Although there are "teams", stock car racing is not a "team" sport. The Championship deserves to go to the driver that has the best season.

Yet the Chase format allows a driver that is in 30th place in the standings into the Chase if they manage to win a race. Last year, Kyle Larson had 8 Top 5's and 17 Top 10's and wasn't allowed to compete in the Chase because he didn't have a win. Meanwhile, AJ Allmendinger had 2 Top 5's and 5 Top 10's and gets in the Chase because he won a race.

Which driver had the better season?

It's no longer necessary to make all the races to win the Championship. The Busch brothers both missed races - Kurt 3 races due to suspension and Kyle 11 races because he broke his leg in a non Cup race.

Under the original Championship format - using today's points system - Joey Logano would be in first place in the points. Under the Chase format - this incredible season (6 wins, 20 Top 5's and 26 Top 10's) could end up going for naught as he is in 8th place and unless he wins one of the next 2 races will most likely be eliminated.

#2 under the classic Championship format would be Kevin Harvick with 3 wins, 20 Top 5's and 25 Top 10's.

The current point leader is Jeff Gordon with 1 win, 5 Top 5's and 18 Top 10's. And he is the only Chaser currently guaranteed to have the opportunity to race for the Championship at Homestead.

Here is how the standings would look:

1) #22-Joey Logano (C8), 1213
2) #4-Kevin Harvick (C4), 1192 -21
3) #88-Dale Earnhardt Jr. (EC), 1109 -104
4) #2-Brad Keselowski (C6), 1094 -119
5) #78-Martin Truex Jr. (C3), 1065 -148
6) #11-Denny Hamlin (EC), 1041 -172
7) #48-Jimmie Johnson (EC), 1033 -180
8) #20-Matt Kenseth (EC), 1009 -204
9) #19-Carl Edwards (C5), 1003 -210
10) #41-Kurt Busch (C7), 998 -215
11) #24-Jeff Gordon (C1), 997 -216
12) #31-Ryan Newman (EC), 969 -244
13) #1-Jamie McMurray (EC), 958 -255
14) #27-Paul Menard (EC), 887 -326
15) #43-Aric Almirola, 877 -336
16) #5-Kasey Kahne, 872 -341
17) #15-Clint Bowyer (EC), 840 -373
18) #42-Kyle Larson, 802 -411
19) #16-Greg Biffle, 796 -417
20) #3-Austin Dillon, 745 -468
21) #18-Kyle Busch (C2), 738 -475
22) #13-Casey Mears, 712 -501
23) #47-AJ Allmendinger, 687 -526
24) #17-Ricky Stenhouse, Jr., 664 -549
25) #14-Tony Stewart, 661 -552
26) #9-Sam Hornish, Jr., 657 -556
27)#10-Danica Patrick, 640 -573

This should be a two person race for the Championship (IMHO).

Joey should be in the catbird seat with three races to go and Harvick the only driver with a good opportunity to catch him.

Dale Jr. and Brad might have a slim chance if both Kevin and Joey have problems.

Everybody else would be mathematically eliminated.

But in contrast, Kyle Busch who has had the 21st best season, is in second place right now...

  #224  
Old 11-05-2015, 09:06 AM
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After more than 20 years, and watching or going to nearly every race in that span, I have just stopped being a fan of NASCAR. For Matt to be penalized and Harvick to get away with what he did, the message is clear, NASCAR plays favorites and has variable rules depending who is the alleged criminal and who is the victim. Admittedly, I purposely did not watch the Martinsville race, so I don't know what was going on at the time of the crash.

There seems to be something against Kenseth. After he won his championship, NASCAR changed the points system. His winning quietly did not fit their mold. They eventually came up with this ridiculous format that awards inconsistency. As has been said throughout this thread, drivers who have had great seasons statistically did not make the chase. While drivers who might win one road course race, and being back markers at others, do make the chase.

From the many fans I have spoken with through this decline, most have the listed the following reasons for giving up on the sport.

1. Debris cautions!
2. Race control controlling the outcome of the race.
3. Chase format.
4. Debris cautions. 2x
5. Inconsistent application of rules.
6. Cookie cutter cars; no brand identity.
7. Drivers aren't allowed to speak their mind without getting penalized.

I'd like to see other's list as to what is killing the sport.

The last race I purposely did not watch was in 2001 when Bobby Hamilton won at Talledega. Fox had put the race on tape delay because of a Yankee game!

  #225  
Old 11-05-2015, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
When asked about the difference between Kenseth's aggressive driving and Danica's, France noted the stakes that were on the line.

"Going back to Richmond, we made it very clear that anybody in the industry, any driver or participant who intentionally tries to alter the outcome of events or championships, that that crosses a different line than a racing problem between two drivers," France said.
Each race is an "event".

Danica attempted to take out Gilliland INTENTIONALLY - not once but twice. If she would have been successful, it would have taken Gilliland out of the race and caused him to finish much worse than the 24th that he did (Danica did take her self out and finished 40th).

So incompetence in the art of taking a driver out is rewarded with allowing the Princess to race the next two weekends while Kenseth is parked.

Of course, Brian's own words say that the mere attempt is enough to cross the line.

Hypocrisy at it's best...

  #226  
Old 11-05-2015, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jpg69bird View Post
After more than 20 years, and watching or going to nearly every race in that span, I have just stopped being a fan of NASCAR. For Matt to be penalized and Harvick to get away with what he did, the message is clear, NASCAR plays favorites and has variable rules depending who is the alleged criminal and who is the victim. Admittedly, I purposely did not watch the Martinsville race, so I don't know what was going on at the time of the crash.

There seems to be something against Kenseth. After he won his championship, NASCAR changed the points system. His winning quietly did not fit their mold. They eventually came up with this ridiculous format that awards inconsistency. As has been said throughout this thread, drivers who have had great seasons statistically did not make the chase. While drivers who might win one road course race, and being back markers at others, do make the chase.

From the many fans I have spoken with through this decline, most have the listed the following reasons for giving up on the sport.

1. Debris cautions!
2. Race control controlling the outcome of the race.
3. Chase format.
4. Debris cautions. 2x
5. Inconsistent application of rules.
6. Cookie cutter cars; no brand identity.
7. Drivers aren't allowed to speak their mind without getting penalized.

I'd like to see other's list as to what is killing the sport.

The last race I purposely did not watch was in 2001 when Bobby Hamilton won at Talledega. Fox had put the race on tape delay because of a Yankee game!
I think you've pretty much nailed it. For me anyway, identical cars, rules that are enforced depending on who broke them, drivers not being able to speak what they are thinking. Also, I understand sponsorships are important. But you almost NEVER see or hear a driver, without wearing their billboard, or hearing about the sponsor 12 times in a 3 minute conversation.

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  #227  
Old 11-05-2015, 04:39 PM
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The constant mention of their sponsors during post-race interviews is getting out of hand.

Oh, and the drinks they take when they get out of the car. They get paid each time they are seen on camera drinking their sponsor's brand. Where else do you see interviews that always begin with the athlete taking a drink of soda? It's completely staged and getting ridiculous.

  #228  
Old 11-05-2015, 06:16 PM
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Gentlemen!I with our elected officials had a uniform like a NASCAR driver so we know who is paying for them!Tom

  #229  
Old 11-05-2015, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by tom s View Post
Gentlemen!I with our elected officials had a uniform like a NASCAR driver so we know who is paying for them!Tom
Best idea yet! The more money contributed, the bigger the name on the congressman's jacket. Smaller donors might get a sleeve or pant leg.
I have a feeling some would run out of space.

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  #230  
Old 11-06-2015, 02:23 AM
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My driver drinks Budweiser.

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Last edited by cuz68; 11-06-2015 at 02:58 AM.
  #231  
Old 11-06-2015, 02:56 AM
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I want the old rules on the books to make it work again. If your car is a Pontiac it better have a Pontiac engine in it, if it's a Chevy you have to run a chevy engine. If they don't make a real wheel drive car Tough Sh!t you don't race. That will bring back real cars not these eggs on wheels with the front wheels doing the work of what should be the rear wheels job. Plus the cars shouldn't all fit into that stupid ass mold of the cars that run today. If it's not made it's not run,,,, Period.....

  #232  
Old 11-06-2015, 03:00 AM
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Forget it, It will never be like that again.

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  #233  
Old 11-06-2015, 09:06 AM
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Forget it, It will never be like that again.


Like he says, that is never going to happen in NASCAR.

The equity of having the same shape body and being able to keep the power of all engines within a few HP, never lets the lead car finish 11 laps ahead of second place, as in the "GOOD OLE DAYS"

NASCAR is devoted more to showcasing driver talent, merchandising sponsors, and keeping the playing field level, than it is to promoting car brands in this day. Even though the manufacturers spend a big chunk of money on race programs the trickle down effect from race innovation to production line cars is very minimal any longer. Cup holder innovation isn't coming from NASCAR.

The cars in the horsepower wars today, aren't raced in the cup series so watching a ford win on Sunday doesn't equate to someone buying a new Shelby/5000/whiz bang/Bullit mustang on Monday because they saw it on TV.

The amount of deception that was going on in the 60s by people like Smokey Yunick, Hollman Moody, etc., the cars looked like they were stock, they were heavily modified for competition by means of cheating so the deception of stock cars was taking place then as well. It was just less noticeable from the fan side.

It ain't never going to be the same as it was in the 60s, even though stock wasn't stock back then either.

Another thing that has changed is BIG Bill France died and his son was at the helm, things changed some. When Brian France comes along things change more. As the management changes, the world changes, things in NASCAR must evolve too. Natural evolution.

Also the car culture has changed a ton since the sixties. Todays young adults look at their cars the same as they do their refrigerator or their washer and dryer, appliances. People can't work on their own cars as much as they did in the 60s because of the complexity, and they just plain don't have the desire to.

OMG, how did you get so much grease/dirt under your fingernails!!!!!
I pay someone to work on my car, don't you have enough money to pay someone to work on yours?

Watching racing has much more competition now in the electronics age. People would rather be on Facebook talking about themselves and spreading gossip than sitting at a race track, or devoting 3-4 hours of watching a cup race on TV.

Heck people don't even read books any longer. The younger generation can't do a math problem without a calculator. Spelling and comprehension is mirrored in the tests the gov't puts so much stock in, and we all know how low the scores are on those tests are because it's on the news seems like everyday.

When you live in the past, you will get left in the dust.

If there is something that's good, just leave it up to a human being to screw it up. It's a wonder we've survived as long as we have.

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Last edited by Sirrotica; 11-06-2015 at 09:14 AM.
  #234  
Old 11-06-2015, 11:36 AM
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NASCAR has become a liberal sport.
The drivers are all wienies now compared to the old days.

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Last edited by Region Warrior; 11-06-2015 at 11:42 AM.
  #235  
Old 11-06-2015, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Region Warrior View Post
NASCAR has become a liberal sport.
The drivers are all wienies now compared to the old days.
DITTOS!!

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  #236  
Old 11-07-2015, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Sirrotica View Post
It ain't never going to be the same as it was in the 60s, even though stock wasn't stock back then either.
Double negative.....just sayin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirrotica View Post
If there is something that's good, just leave it up to a human being to screw it up. It's a wonder we've survived as long as we have.
So true, so true.

Just as they wished, I'll be watching Sunday.

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  #237  
Old 11-07-2015, 02:00 PM
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Can't even make this stuff up


  #238  
Old 11-07-2015, 02:46 PM
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Looks good to me, Chief Gordon. And one of his rainbow warriors.

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  #239  
Old 11-08-2015, 02:01 PM
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all this talk about rules, sponsors, cars, etc. mean nothing to me. i gave up on nascar just this year for the ONE simple reason that i do not get either Fox Sports 1 or NBC sports channel so i couldnt watch any of the races the second half of the season even if i wanted to. (ok maybe 2 or 3 on regular network). i figure if they don't want me to see them on my basic cable package they can just go F themselves. So the entire blame to me is on the Big Toe for signing with those networks. gives me more time to mow my lawn anyway.

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  #240  
Old 11-08-2015, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Sirrotica View Post
The fans go wild because the Dale Jr fans believe Logano knocked their hero out of the chase. Remember all the Jr fans pelting Logano with beer cans after his win?

They're happy because they feel JL knocked Jr out of the chase and what Kenseth did vindicated their hero.

If you've never been at a NASCAR race in person, when Jr gets the lead the stands go wild. By the same token when he loses the lead they all collectively sigh. I've never been able to hear it very well on TV, but if your there in person you can't miss it. These are the same people that were cheering Kenseth after he wrecked Logano, they aren't Kenseth fans, they're Jr fans. The field was under yellow or red so it wasn't being drowned out by the cars is why it was so loud.

Same group of people that have made death threats to Sterling Marlin when Dale Sr was killed in 2001. Since then there have been death threats to other drivers that either accidentally or intentionally have had on track encounters with Jr. You've heard announcers talk about "The Jr Nation" and it's real, and it's huge.

Just an FYI, 71% of the fans polled today seem to think Kenseth's move was justified. Just 29% thought he was wrong, I'm going with the 29%. You'll notice that all the former race car drivers/commentators were livid about what Kenseth did, and felt there was NO justification in what he did to retaliate. Again, most people that have a connection with racing on the participation level feel it was dangerous and uncalled for. If the racing community was polled I'm sure the stats would be opposite of fan polls.
Was watching the replay of the from the Kenseth/Lagano wreck last week during today's race. The camera pans to fans in the stands cheering after Kenseth dumps Logano. Just for my own curiosity I stopped the action, and guess what number was on their shirts? Yep it was 88, the fans that were jumping up and down cheering and clapping were Jr fans, imagine that.................

Naw all that cheering wasn't from Jr fans, yeah right.

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