[Hillard]

I think I'm going to start using my 69 GP as my daily driver again. Looking to install an overdrive trans and debating on what to use. I have a fairly fresh T-400 in the car and thought about using a Gear Vendors overdrive, but they are not cheap. I also thought about a $L80E but to find a rebuilt one, and buy a converter, and then get a controller, it seems to end about the same price. And the Gear Vendors seem like it would be less work to install. What have you used, and are you happy with it?

[Formulajones]

Is this Dave I'm talking too? I remember racing with you (67 GTO if memory serves) at Kil Kare, the old TA Nats races years ago.



I've been both ways.

If you have a good working 400 and converter setup you're happy with, the Gear Vendor starts to make more sense. It can be done cheaper than a 4L80E. The Gear Vendor offers an overdrive ratio of roughly .78 and that generally is enough to satisfy as long as the rear gear isn't more than 3.73's.
It has some drawbacks that would be lengthy for me to get into. Just to touch on one is the semi frequent fluid changes that Gear Vendor recommends would add up rather quickly on a daily driver.

The 4L80E offers other advantages that sway me more this direction. The ability to fine tune it, shift points, converter lockup points, harshness, and the ability to just let it do it's thing and forget about it. The converter lockup is nice as now stall converter slippage doesn't really factor in when cruising. When it's locked, it's locked. The drawback is cost. To do a fresh unit, with a good converter, good controller, mechanical speedo housing, cross member, driveshaft, cooler lines, 4 speed detent shifter conversion etc.... you can get over $4000 and up to $5000 pretty quickly. Cost is really the only negative going with a 4L80E and the reason why so many steer away from it.
My opinion, worth every penny!!

[Hillard]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Is this Dave I'm talking too? I remember racing with you (67 GTO if memory serves) at Kil Kare, the old TA Nats races years ago.



I've been both ways.

If you have a good working 400 and converter setup you're happy with, the Gear Vendor starts to make more sense. It can be done cheaper than a 4L80E. The Gear Vendor offers an overdrive ratio of roughly .78 and that generally is enough to satisfy as long as the rear gear isn't more than 3.73's.
It has some drawbacks that would be lengthy for me to get into. Just to touch on one is the semi frequent fluid changes that Gear Vendor recommends would add up rather quickly on a daily driver.

The 4L80E offers other advantages that sway me more this direction. The ability to fine tune it, shift points, converter lockup points, harshness, and the ability to just let it do it's thing and forget about it. The converter lockup is nice as now stall converter slippage doesn't really factor in when cruising. When it's locked, it's locked. The drawback is cost. To do a fresh unit, with a good converter, good controller, mechanical speedo housing, cross member, driveshaft, cooler lines, 4 speed detent shifter conversion etc.... you can get over $4000 and up to $5000 pretty quickly. Cost is really the only negative going with a 4L80E and the reason why so many steer away from it.
My opinion, worth every penny!!

Yep, it's me. GTO is in someone else's hands now. Got another ride though. A 74 TA that used to be a Super Stocker.

Anyway, I've been leaning towards the 4L80E but wanted to hear some opinions from those that have actually done it. After I typed this I decided to do a search (yes, that was probably backwards) and have seen some mixed reviews. But most seem to really like the 4L80E. Thanks for the advice.

[goatwgn]

Just my personal experience. I put a Gear Vendors unit behind a TH 400 in my '66 Tempest Custom wagon in 2012, and I have loved it ever since. I don't use it much in town, but it is great on the highway. I have 3.42 gears and 27.5 inch tall tires. I run a mild, '73 455 in it

[Goatracer1]

Almost 20 years ago I followed the HP Pontiac Magazine article and installed a 200-4R in place of the T400 in my 1967 GTO and contrary to what a lot of people on here say I have never had any problems. Used ShiftWorks kit to modify original shifter. Installed new yoke on original driveshaft. Transmission was built by BowTie Overdrives and they talked me through the adjustment of the cable. In fact they insist. I couldn’t be happier. Oh, by the way, engine makes 600 hp.

[Hillard]

Originally Posted by Goatracer1

Almost 20 years ago I followed the HP Pontiac Magazine article and installed a 200-4R in place of the T400 in my 1967 GTO and contrary to what a lot of people on here say I have never had any problems. Used ShiftWorks kit to modify original shifter. Installed new yoke on original driveshaft. Transmission was built by BowTie Overdrives and they talked me through the adjustment of the cable. In fact they insist. I couldn’t be happier. Oh, by the way, engine makes 600 hp.

Thanks. I actually have a fresh 200-4R but was hesitant to try it. Car should be somewhere between 400 - 450hp. Might want to take it to the track once just to see what it will do, but don't intend to make more than a pass or two. It is on my bucket list to take it to the Silver State Classic some day. The trans came out of a Monte SS which I'm told is a little better than most 200's. So I might look further into going this route since I already have it.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Hillard

Thanks. I actually have a fresh 200-4R but was hesitant to try it. Car should be somewhere between 400 - 450hp. Might want to take it to the track once just to see what it will do, but don't intend to make more than a pass or two. It is on my bucket list to take it to the Silver State Classic some day. The trans came out of a Monte SS which I'm told is a little better than most 200's. So I might look further into going this route since I already have it.

at that power level & street purpose, a 200r built & adjusted right will be fine & far cheaper & easier than GV or 4380. they are proven to last behind big power, lots of GN's doing 10's & even 9's & plenty of members on here with 400-500+hp pontiacs with them.

[slowbird]

Don't mean to hijack the thread but which way do you guys would be quicker at the track?

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Don't mean to hijack the thread but which way do you guys would be quicker at the track?

Kind of a loaded question. Like Dave, I'm a racer at heart, and even though we are talking about street cars, I'm guessing he's much like myself and enjoys making our street cars run as well as they can.

As far as what would be quicker really depends on how the rest of the car is setup. The car I did my swap in, was already setup with a perfect working 400 turbo and a nice Continental converter. Going to a 4L80E really didn't change anything as far as performance, it's identical in gear ratios. I simply added an overdrive and lockup converter.

What it does provide me with though, is more accurate and consistent shifting with a programmed controller, and I now have a lockup converter which almost acts like another gear, and can be locked on full throttle runs at any point I wish, which should affect ET and MPH.

It's going to depend a lot on the rest of the car and what you're starting with.

[RocktimusPryme]

This always gets emotional with people. I would say price wise the GV is a waste at that power level.

I would think a bone stock used 4l80e would work with no building necessary at that power level. They have gone up in price, but I still see them in running condition for like ~400 here and there. They nickel and dime you from there. Controller, driveshaft, adapter plate etc. Its not a cheap swap. If it was cheap I would have already done it myself.

Im still not sure I agree that a built 200 would be cheaper than a used 4l80 and its required components. Getting a transmission built is expensive. Plus once you get a 4l80e in there even if you waste it you can just go get another bullet from the junkyard for a few hundred bucks. You torpedo your built 200 unit and it hits for the initial cost all over again.

There are valid reasons to use the 200R4. Its easier to bolt in, you already have it, doesnt need the expensive controller. All valid. Also not going to argue with that said above that some have been proven to last once built. All that said, the 4l80 is better transmission. It just is. There is no argument.

[78w72]

nobody is arguing the 4l80 isnt a better/stronger trans... my comment was that a 200r built to a basic moderate level can handle 400hp pretty easy, especially on a daily driver seeing mostly street/highway use. the high end expensive builds are more for racers & the 500-600hp cars. back in the 90's HPP magazine was suggesting stock 200r's from the GNs & monte ss as a drop in for mild built pontiacs.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by 78w72

nobody is arguing the 4l80 isnt a better/stronger trans... my comment was that a 200r built to a basic moderate level can handle 400hp pretty easy, especially on a daily driver seeing mostly street/highway use. the high end expensive builds are more for racers & the 500-600hp cars. back in the 90's HPP magazine was suggesting stock 200r's from the GNs & monte ss as a drop in for mild built pontiacs.

Not pointing fingers. Just making a point. Ive never used a 200, but I have annihilated several mildly built 700s which are supposed to be the stronger of the family. So Im clearly biased here. It all depends how you drive it. My dad always brags he could make a stock t5 last behind 600 ft lbs for years. He is probably right. My dad is incredibly boring. It wouldnt last under my right foot.

I also thought that the 200s were an expensive build even in the mild build category. I could be wrong, but I thought you were staring down the barrel at about $2000 no matter what level of build you wanted from a reputable builder.

I kinda think the world "mild" when it comes to making power with cars has changed dramatically since the 1990s. I mean my motor is pretty mild. I think my duration at .050 is like 236. I dont think I would trust a factory Monte 200R4 behind what qualifies for mild here in 2021. I DO think you could reasonably trust a yanked 4l80e even with miles on it already.

Thats really what this comes down to I think. Would you rather have a new 200r4 with all the money into the trans itself. Or a used 4l80e with most of the money into what it took to swap the unit in. I would bet you end up fairly close in dollars.

[Formulajones]

The only problem I have with a yanked 4L80E is mileage and how it was taken care of. Most people in the last 20 years couldn't care less about changing transmission fluid, and most of those 4L80E's were used in trucks hauling and towing heavy loads. Many of them, if you can find one, have well over 150,000 to 200,000 miles already.

I was told by an employee at Hughes that cores are now getting harder to find, hence the core prices have increased nearly double. In fact, he wanted to buy all the 400 turbos I have laying here as they are also getting more difficult to find.

For me personally, sticking a used one in the car just isn't an option. With everything else built and restored throughout the car, installing a used trans just doesn't sound appealing, lol.

I don't mean to steer anyone away from a 4L80E, but any trans that is 15-20 years old I'd expect at least a basic rebuild should be in order, with new solenoids and wire harness included to minimize problems.

The good thing is that rebuilding one isn't all that expensive. You don't have to beef them really at all up to 750-850hp. I good basic rebuild with quality clutches/steels isn't hard to do. If you can rebuild a 350/400 turbo you can do a 4L80E. In fact most fresh 4L80's offered by vendors advertise 750-850hp with nothing more than a solid rebuild. Only difference between that and the 1000HP models is a billet input shaft.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

The only problem I have with a yanked 4L80E is mileage and how it was taken care of. Most people in the last 20 years couldn't care less about changing transmission fluid, and most of those 4L80E's were used in trucks hauling and towing heavy loads. Many of them, if you can find one, have well over 150,000 to 200,000 miles already.

I was told by an employee at Hughes that cores are now getting harder to find, hence the core prices have increased nearly double. In fact, he wanted to buy all the 400 turbos I have laying here as they are also getting more difficult to find.

For me personally, sticking a used one in the car just isn't an option. With everything else built and restored throughout the car, installing a used trans just doesn't sound appealing, lol.

I don't mean to steer anyone away from a 4L80E, but any trans that is 15-20 years old I'd expect at least a basic rebuild should be in order, with new solenoids and wire harness included to minimize problems.

The good thing is that rebuilding one isn't all that expensive. You don't have to beef them really at all up to 750-850hp. I good basic rebuild with quality clutches/steels isn't hard to do. If you can rebuild a 350/400 turbo you can do a 4L80E. In fact most fresh 4L80's offered by vendors advertise 750-850hp with nothing more than a solid rebuild. Only difference between that and the 1000HP models is a billet input shaft.

Are the 4L80 cores or T400 cores getting hard to find?

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

Are the 4L80 cores or T400 cores getting hard to find?

Both according to Hughes, at least around these parts anyway

[78w72]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

Not pointing fingers. Just making a point. Ive never used a 200, but I have annihilated several mildly built 700s which are supposed to be the stronger of the family. So Im clearly biased here. It all depends how you drive it. My dad always brags he could make a stock t5 last behind 600 ft lbs for years. He is probably right. My dad is incredibly boring. It wouldnt last under my right foot.

I also thought that the 200s were an expensive build even in the mild build category. I could be wrong, but I thought you were staring down the barrel at about $2000 no matter what level of build you wanted from a reputable builder.

I kinda think the world "mild" when it comes to making power with cars has changed dramatically since the 1990s. I mean my motor is pretty mild. I think my duration at .050 is like 236. I dont think I would trust a factory Monte 200R4 behind what qualifies for mild here in 2021. I DO think you could reasonably trust a yanked 4l80e even with miles on it already.

Thats really what this comes down to I think. Would you rather have a new 200r4 with all the money into the trans itself. Or a used 4l80e with most of the money into what it took to swap the unit in. I would bet you end up fairly close in dollars.

im not pointing fingers either, just wanted to reply to the point i was making. the OP has 400hp & will use it as a daily driver... to me thats very mild & well within the range of a good working 200r. & definitely applies to the "all depends on how you drive it" factor.

200s are no more expensive to build with common parts as a 700 or 350 from a reputable trans shop, im not talking about the race parts they need to live behind high power/torque engine, just good quality clutch packs & other parts. if any shop wants $2000 to do a basic trans rebuild... find a new shop! you can buy a strong art carr 200r complete for $2000-2500 & they claim they handle something like 600hp & provide a warranty.

mild to me is more along the lines of adding maybe 100-200 hp over the stock rating... ~350-400hp with iron heads & pump gas... not an engine like your or my stroker with aum heads, forged internals & cams in the upper 230 to mid 240 duration etc etc. 600 hp is not really "mild' for a street car regardless of the era, even though i do agree its pretty easy to make that kind of power today. just to clarify, HPP said factory GN & monte 200s behind mild built cars, & back then or today that was 350-400hp tops... & as a street cruiser not being raced or abused to much.

[ErikW]

4l80e and a US Shift controller and call it good.

[Hillard]

I appreciate all the feedback. Right now I'm leaning towards using the 200 that I have, simply because I already have it. If it breaks, I'll regret it, pitch it in the scrap, and find a 4L80E.

[Formulajones]

Ah, didn't mention that in your first post.

By all means if you already have a 200 I'd certainly go that direction. A good rebuild with a few tricks should provide years of service without trouble. Especially a driver type car, and they are a pretty straight forward swap in a Pontiac.

[Gary H]

Originally Posted by Hillard

I appreciate all the feedback. Right now I'm leaning towards using the 200 that I have, simply because I already have it. If it breaks, I'll regret it, pitch it in the scrap, and find a 4L80E.

Go with the 200. It's FAR cheaper than the 4l80E to install. I've put all three in different cars, 200, 700, and 4L80E's. The 4L800 takes the controller, bellhousing adapter, and it is expensive to buy initially. Certainly stronger, but at your power level a properly built 200 should be fine.