[dmac]

Lots of scary info on both lifters and cams wearing fast or just not up to snuff from the box.

I know Rhoads uses a stock lifter (Johnson?) that they modify. I haven't read any complaints about them not working as they are supposed to out of the box, but I may have missed.

I am considering a 2802 Summit cam with rhoads in a mild 455 because I want a mild cam at low rpm and durability using the rhoads because of the lack of bad reviews, other than the tick..

Would a milder cam with standard lifters offer any more durability or lower spring pressures without lifter problems? I am planning a rev limiter at around 5000-5200 rpm.

Note that I am thinking Rhoads lifters for durability, not the performance characteristics.

[tom s]

I question having to use the Rhoads in a 455 at all with a 2802?Tom

[dmac]

Originally Posted by tom s

I question having to use the Rhoads in a 455 at all with a 2802?Tom

The rhoads don't have any reported quality issues that I have found. It isn't picking the 2802 and using rhoads, it's choosing rhoads for their quality and a cam that will perform best a low rpm keeping in mind that it will be used with rhoads lifter.

I guess I'm asking if the rhoads quality is better than standard HFT lifters.

[64speed]

Paul Carter told me to get Hylift Johnson lifters to go with my voodoo cam so that’s what I did. In the past on Chevrolet motors I have always used comp cams. For break in I always coated everything with copious amounts of assembly lube then filled the lifter valley with Rotella and used two of the Lucas zddp additive bottles. Never had a failure except for my neighbor who went back and adjusted the valves after I had the truck running fine ��

[Schurkey]

The ticking of Rhodes lifters is from the valve slamming the seat as it closes. Not my first choice.

[hurryinhoosier62]

X 2 on Tom's observation. Normal Hylift Johnson lifter should be sufficient. Leave the Rhodes lifters for cams that can take advantage of their design.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

The ticking of Rhodes lifters is from the valve slamming the seat as it closes. Not my first choice.

No, the ticking is from the bleed rate. I've ran Rhodes lifters and had zero lifter or valve problems,.

[ponyakr]

At 298/303 adv duration, I don't see any reason in the world why Rhoads lifters wouldn't work great on a 2802 cam. It'll just give the engine a little smoother idle & a little more vac. May also have a little more torque, under 3000 rpm.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...RoCJdgQAvD_BwE

And I'd also go with the Super Lube option. Hey, you get 3 advantages: more oil on the cam lobes, a good quality lifter, plus the bleed down feature.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/r...w/make/pontiac

For me, it's a no-brainer. If you don't mind the tick, what would be the disadvantage of using these on a 2802 cam ?

I reckin some are just like the Quadrajunk bashers, who think only a Holley will do. Some think only Hylift Johnson "R" lifters will do, therefore it is foolish to buy anything else.

Paul Spotts claims that the USA made lifters he sells are the best. "These are the best Pontiac and Oldsmobile lifters available."

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Hydrauli...xZODlz&vxp=mtr

For those who like the Super Lube feature, but not the bleed down feature, Crower sells what they call Cam Saver lifters. I don't have a clue who makes the cores. Haven't read anything bad about 'em.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/c...w/make/pontiac

[64speed]

I’ve never heard the rhoads lifters running in a car so I don’t know how annoying they are. I guess giving explanation to every Tom dick and Harry that wanted to know why your engine ticks might be a pain but a lot of people swear by them so they must be quality. I only bought the Hylift cause Paul spec’d the cam for me so I figured I’d take his lifter recommendation. When it comes to stuff like valvetrain I usually like to stick with all same manufacturer. I bought the lunati timing chain so now I gotta find out about pushrods and rockers

[ponyakr]

"... I usually like to stick with all same manufacturer. I bought the lunati timing chain so now I gotta find out about pushrods and rockers..."

Well, I don't know if Lunati makes pushrods or rockers. But like most other cam vendors, they do sell 'em. Here are some stock length pushrods.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-80726-16

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/l...BoCWAEQAvD_BwE

If you need shorter than stock length, they have those, too. Looks like they have lengths from 8.70 thru 9.10 in .025 increments. One of these lengths should fit most any Pontiac combo. But, if not, they got lots of other lengths.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/l...2-16/overview/

https://www.summitracing.com/search/...rder=Ascending

How about some Voodoo rockers ?

http://butlerperformance.com/i-24453...tegory:1234784

[A.W.Dille]

A few years ago I talked to Ken Ace Brewer about bleed off lifters like the Rhodes on a 068 cam that I was going with in the 350 I was doing for the Grand Prix. His recommendation was to use a standard type of lifter as no benefit would be achieved on a cam of less than 230°@.050. .

[ponyakr]

"...no benefit would be achieved on a cam of less than 230°@.050. "


I don't believe a word of that, whether Ace or anybody else said it.

I can see that there would probably not be much to gain with an 068. But, if you were using that 068 in a 326, the Rhoads might actually help a little.

And I can see that Rhoads probably wouldn't help a small Voodoo.

But, I'd dare say that there are a lot of cams with more than 280° adv duration, but less than 230° @ .050, that could benefit from Rhoads lifters, especially in smaller cube engines. The first that come to mind are the 744 clones & variations. At 301/313, Rhoads could help a lot, in a 350 engine, or even a 400, with an auto, stock converter and highway gears. My 744 ran great in a 400. But that was with 3.90 gears and a 4-speed.

Hey, this Lunati version of the 744 only has 220° @ .050, and a 110° LSA. I think the Rhoads would help it a lot, in a 350.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1756

So, anyhow, what Ace said just won't fly for me.

[70 bird]

I agree with Tom, you dont need rhoads with a 2802 in a 455. I have the 2802 with 1.65 rockers in my 462 I used the summit lifters that came with the kit with 20k miles no problems. I have 15in. of vacuum at 800 idle.

[ponyakr]

Don't reckin I've heard anybody recommend Summit lifters.

I choose Rhoads, even if the engine doesn't really NEED 'em. Different strokes, I guess.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

No, the ticking is from the bleed rate. I've ran Rhodes lifters and had zero lifter or valve problems,.

Of course the ticking is from the "bleed rate". The lifter bleeds down, the valve slams the seat when it closes because of the shortened lifter length, which makes the closing ramps on the cam useless. (Until the RPM comes up enough that the lifter doesn't have time to bleed down farther than the closing ramps can compensate for. Of course, closing ramps on hydraulic cams are pretty small, exactly because there isn't supposed to be any clearance in the valvetrain.)

Originally Posted by ponyakr

Don't reckin I've heard anybody recommend Summit lifters.

Who is Summit sourcing their lifters from...this week?

I bought a set of Summit-branded lifters with a Summit-branded cam. Worked great. I have no expectation that the lifters sold NOW are the same ones sold THEN.

I bought Comp Cams valvetrain kit for an Olds 455--cam, lifters, springs, retainers, etc. One of the lifters would not pump up. I removed it, took it apart, found that there was NO check valve in the bottom. Complained to Comp. They sent me a set of lifters as warranty replacements--same part number. I pulled 'em apart and found they were from an entirely different supplier. The internal construction was different between the two sets of lifters.






In the old days, there were four companies that made hydraulic flat-tappet lifters and four hundred that bought in bulk, marked-up the price, and put them in a custom-printed box. The four companies were Eaton, Stanadyne, Johnson, and GM/Delco.


Far as I know, Eaton and Stanadyne are Tango Uniform, Delco is now Delphi and the lifter selection is dramatically reduced (or maybe now they're done with hydraulic flat-tappets) leaving Johnson and the Chinese and I-don't-know-who-else still playing the game. Some folks prized the GM/DelcoDelphi lifters due to the hardened disc at the bottom of the lifter body.

[Cliff R]

No mention of what compression ratio this 455 will be that I saw anyplace. This is a KEY component in cam selection and the cam choice for a 455 with 7.7 to 1 compression would be quite different for the same build with 9.5 to 1 compression (for example).

The 2802 is a very mild cam in a 455 engine build right to start with. I've never used one here but have had a few 455's in here to tune that did and found them to be very mild, smooth idle and decent power curve. One was a 455 HO with around 8.8 to 1 compression and I specifically remember than engine being somewhat lacking on top end power but idled very smooth and ran well in the "normal" driving range.

Personally I feel the 2802 is a good cam in a 400 engine build but not enough cam for a 455 unless your compression ratio is pretty "low". If you are building one with 6X or other heads to get the compression ratio at or near 9.5 to 10 to 1 there are much better choices out there.

Rhoads lifters will work fine on any cam, but to fully utilize their bleed down feature it is best to over-cam by about 10 degrees @ .050" and add high ratio rocker arms. This will give the end user the very best of both Worlds with their new engine build, improved idle quality, improved throttle response, more power from idle to 2500rpm's or so, and a broad/flat power curve with excellent upper mid-range and top end power.

I've done the dyno testing with that deal and backed it up with track runs. Using the right cam/Rhoads/rocker arm combination you truly can mimic the power of a very well chose hydraulic roller cam at much less cost.....FWIW......Cliff

[68 Firebird]

I have had a set of Crower cam saver lifters in use for
A few years now. Set lash at a half a turn and no issues so far.
using 10w30 there is very little noise at startup and still
Good HOT oil pressure at just under 20 psi.

Gerry

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by dmac

Lots of scary info on both lifters and cams wearing fast or just not up to snuff from the box.

I know Rhoads uses a stock lifter (Johnson?) that they modify. I haven't read any complaints about them not working as they are supposed to out of the box, but I may have missed.

I am considering a 2802 Summit cam with rhoads in a mild 455 because I want a mild cam at low rpm and durability using the rhoads because of the lack of bad reviews, other than the tick..

Would a milder cam with standard lifters offer any more durability or lower spring pressures without lifter problems? I am planning a rev limiter at around 5000-5200 rpm.

Note that I am thinking Rhoads lifters for durability, not the performance characteristics.

I'd question the need for Rhoads lifters on a 2802 cam in a 455. That's a very mild cam for a 455.

I've run the 2802 in a 428 with 1.65 rockers and still found no need for Rhoads lifters. The cam idled very smooth and made 13" of vacuum up here at 5,000 ft. I simply ran the standard Hylift Johnson lifters with it.

I've actually used a few different brands of camshafts with their lifters supplied and have found none of the complaints that are occasionally mentioned here. I'm currently running 2 of the Melling cams with their supplied lifters, one in a Pontiac, and have no issues at all. I'm using Comp in another engine, one of them with the lube hole for the cam lobe. No complaints.

But if you prefer a higher quality lifter, in the combo you're talking about, I'd use a standard Johnson lifter with that mild cam in a 455.

[Tom Vaught]

I would agree with 70 Bird and Tom S that the Rhoads Lifter is NOT needed with the 2802 camshaft in a 455 engine.
But everyone has their opinion on what parts they want to use.

That being said, some just like the cool 'Solid Lifter" sound.

The Rhoads Lifter design had always been a Noisy Lifter vs a stock lifter that performed a specific function, reducing valve event timing at low rpm.
They have done that function well for many years.

Tom V.

[64speed]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

"... I usually like to stick with all same manufacturer. I bought the lunati timing chain so now I gotta find out about pushrods and rockers..."

Well, I don't know if Lunati makes pushrods or rockers. But like most other cam vendors, they do sell 'em. Here are some stock length pushrods.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-80726-16

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/l...BoCWAEQAvD_BwE

If you need shorter than stock length, they have those, too. Looks like they have lengths from 8.70 thru 9.10 in .025 increments. One of these lengths should fit most any Pontiac combo. But, if not, they got lots of other lengths.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/l...2-16/overview/

https://www.summitracing.com/search/...rder=Ascending

How about some Voodoo rockers ?

http://butlerperformance.com/i-24453...tegory:1234784

Thanks for all the links