#1  
Old 11-25-2023, 07:23 AM
461-69bird's Avatar
461-69bird 461-69bird is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: England
Posts: 520
Default Butler valley pan

Not sure how this works but how well does the oil drain back from the pan?

__________________
69 Firebird
472, KRE 85cc, Victor, 850xp, TH400, TSP 9.5" 4800, 3.90 10 bolt, Viking DA rears, QA1 single fronts, 3558lbs. best to date 10.90 @123
  #2  
Old 11-26-2023, 07:18 AM
chuckies76ta's Avatar
chuckies76ta chuckies76ta is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,055
Default

Hi: Your question is a bit vague. I'll take a stab at it. The valley pan will only see oil from the windage of the oil flinging around from the crank, possibly the lifters moving up and down. The area under the valley pan is designed to be the oil drain back area to the oil pan. Yes oil will enter in between the two half of the valley pan, but it will also be draining back to the oil pan. The valley pan is actually designed like it is, so it acts as a baffle for the pcv valve. The idea of the pcv valve is to suck air not oil. There will be some oil in the valley pan baffled area, but most I'm thinking is from oil mist. There is no pressurized oil being sent to the valley pan so to speak from the oil pump.

__________________
68 Firebird. IA2 block, 505 cu in, E-head, Solid roller 3650 weight. Reid TH400 4:11 gear. 29" slick.
Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft.
76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend,
468 with KRE D-ports, Doug headers, 3" Exh.
  #3  
Old 11-26-2023, 07:29 AM
chuckies76ta's Avatar
chuckies76ta chuckies76ta is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,055
Default

I suppose the other issue that can arise is having certain amount of pressure in the oil pan /valley pan as it's opened through the lifter bore area. Air and oil is always trying to escape to atmosphere somewhere in the engine. I've had issue with the oil dipstick being pushed out at higher rpm's. That's where I like a vacuum pump on the engine. You are posting in the race section, so I'm assuming higher H/P build.

__________________
68 Firebird. IA2 block, 505 cu in, E-head, Solid roller 3650 weight. Reid TH400 4:11 gear. 29" slick.
Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft.
76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend,
468 with KRE D-ports, Doug headers, 3" Exh.
  #4  
Old 11-26-2023, 01:36 PM
461-69bird's Avatar
461-69bird 461-69bird is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: England
Posts: 520
Default

Yeah sorry should have worded it differently.

Because I had oil sucked up the pcv in the valley pan, I was wondering how much oil got in there and if it drained quickly.

Also, could you connect a hose from the dipstick tube to the pcv grommet in the valley pan if the pcv was removed, to recycle any oil pushed out of the dipstick at high revs?

__________________
69 Firebird
472, KRE 85cc, Victor, 850xp, TH400, TSP 9.5" 4800, 3.90 10 bolt, Viking DA rears, QA1 single fronts, 3558lbs. best to date 10.90 @123
  #5  
Old 11-27-2023, 12:16 AM
chuckies76ta's Avatar
chuckies76ta chuckies76ta is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,055
Default

Also, could you connect a hose from the dipstick tube to the pcv grommet in the valley pan if the pcv was removed, to recycle any oil pushed out of the dipstick at high revs?

I've never thought of that but I guess you could, but the pressure in the oil pan or internal to the engine is just gonna look for another place to escape. It would be the same if you removed the dipstick and installed a rubber cap over it.
__________________

__________________
68 Firebird. IA2 block, 505 cu in, E-head, Solid roller 3650 weight. Reid TH400 4:11 gear. 29" slick.
Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft.
76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend,
468 with KRE D-ports, Doug headers, 3" Exh.
  #6  
Old 11-27-2023, 12:24 AM
chuckies76ta's Avatar
chuckies76ta chuckies76ta is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,055
Default

You could possibly try some breather caps in the valve covers so engine can vent to atmosphere. I run a vacuum pump on my engine. No pcv, no valve cover breathers and dipstick is closed of with a rubber plug.
It is my understanding the the pressure that builds up in the oil pan area is caused from blow-by.

Google: Blowby is the leakage of any combustion gases or pressure into the engine's crankcase. Most blowby occurs when exhaust gas enters the crankcase by going past the piston rings, while other sources include turbochargers. Blowby that passes the piston rings introduces pressure and combustion gases into the oil pan.

__________________
68 Firebird. IA2 block, 505 cu in, E-head, Solid roller 3650 weight. Reid TH400 4:11 gear. 29" slick.
Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft.
76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend,
468 with KRE D-ports, Doug headers, 3" Exh.

Last edited by chuckies76ta; 11-27-2023 at 12:29 AM.
  #7  
Old 11-27-2023, 07:59 AM
461-69bird's Avatar
461-69bird 461-69bird is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: England
Posts: 520
Default

Chuck, I've already got a breather in each vc, wouldn't that help relieve the pressure from the dipstick hose to valley pan?

I was thinking by running a hose it would stop any oil that's pushed out spilling onto the headers. It could be routed to a connection on the vc I suppose rather than valley pan and still have a breather on each vc.

I tried the pcv in the valley pan but it sucked oil at higher revs even though the valley pan is baffled. My vc doesn't have a baffle.

__________________
69 Firebird
472, KRE 85cc, Victor, 850xp, TH400, TSP 9.5" 4800, 3.90 10 bolt, Viking DA rears, QA1 single fronts, 3558lbs. best to date 10.90 @123
  #8  
Old 11-27-2023, 09:58 AM
chuckies76ta's Avatar
chuckies76ta chuckies76ta is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,055
Default

Chuck, I've already got a breather in each vc, wouldn't that help relieve the pressure from the dipstick hose to valley pan?

Well, I've tried lots of different things when my dipstick was being pushed out at the higher RPM's and I could never get anything to work. That's just me though. I even ran a -10 an hose and fitting from the fuel block off plate to try vent the oil pan area, and it helped but didn't cure my issue. I run an electric fuel pump. I finally settled on a vacuum pump and have never looked back. No oil leaks on the engine anywhere. All my driving is on the street. But I don't put alot of miles on the car each summer like some folks do. There is another thread in the race section right now where I posted a few pic of the vacuum pump installed. Another thing I do since these vacuum pumps like a bit of oil to lubricate the wipers inside of them is give it a little shot of oil ever so often to help lubricate it. I get maybe a 1/2 teaspoon of oil/water out of the catch can after an hour or two drive. You only need like 5-7 " of vacuum from these pumps to evacuate the engine. I also install from GZ a High Flow Vacuum Control Valve to set the amount of vacuum that the pump pulls from the engine. I hook a vacuum gauge up to the engine like in the passenger valve cover, take the car for a drive and hit the higher rps's and then set my vacuum pump for like 7 inches. In my opinion they just work great.
I've seen where individuals put a small catch can on the hose from the PCV so it catches the oil being sucked up from the valley pan. Seemed to work ok. I've never tried it. This is just from my experience with this stuff. We have our 68 Firebird with an IA2 505 cu in engine that we run the bigger GZ pump (VP104) on and works awesome. I don't believe they are making or selling the VP102 pump anymore. GZ is not the only people making vacuum pumps. So you could look around. Moroso comes to mind. Star machine is another although there's is a dry system. I tried the VP102 on the larger cu in 505 engine and it didn't work as well as the VP104 larger vacuum pump. When running a vacuum pump the concerns is that the engine needs to be sealed up very well. The pumps are not as effective is there are leaks from gaskets areas so to speak.
There are more folks on this form with alot more knowledge than myself who may chime into offer advise. I'm only a rookie at this stuff. lol.What I've done has been working very well for myself. I do owe lots of people on this form a big Thank you for all the help and expertise that has been posted over the years.

__________________
68 Firebird. IA2 block, 505 cu in, E-head, Solid roller 3650 weight. Reid TH400 4:11 gear. 29" slick.
Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft.
76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend,
468 with KRE D-ports, Doug headers, 3" Exh.

Last edited by chuckies76ta; 11-27-2023 at 10:04 AM.
The Following User Says Thank You to chuckies76ta For This Useful Post:
  #9  
Old 11-28-2023, 07:21 AM
461-69bird's Avatar
461-69bird 461-69bird is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: England
Posts: 520
Default

Thanks Chuck. Butler has advised against running that hose to their valley pan, so I'm going to have a re think.

__________________
69 Firebird
472, KRE 85cc, Victor, 850xp, TH400, TSP 9.5" 4800, 3.90 10 bolt, Viking DA rears, QA1 single fronts, 3558lbs. best to date 10.90 @123
The Following User Says Thank You to 461-69bird For This Useful Post:
  #10  
Old 11-29-2023, 12:06 PM
Tim Corcoran's Avatar
Tim Corcoran Tim Corcoran is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Willow Spring, North Carolina
Posts: 4,627
Default

If you are pushing the dipstick out, then you may have excessive blowby and the ring seal may not be optimum. If you already have open style breathers on each valve cover to allow the crankcase pressure to vent and you're still pushing out the dip stick then maybe a vacuum pump is one way to go. If you are using the Tomahawk valley pan (factory style) and are still sucking oil thru the PCV valve you can restrict or reduce the vacuum by installing a section of a smaller hose size inside of the vacuum hose. If you went with a vacuum pump you would eliminate the PCV system entirely.

__________________
Tim Corcoran

Last edited by Tim Corcoran; 11-29-2023 at 12:14 PM.
  #11  
Old 11-29-2023, 02:42 PM
461-69bird's Avatar
461-69bird 461-69bird is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: England
Posts: 520
Default

Tim,
I'm using the Butler valley pan. It sucked oil once big time then I disconnected it as couldn't risk smoking the road again. With the pcv capped, it pushed oil from the dipstick
.
Going to try the pcv again with an oil/air separator in between the pcv and carb port with the 2 breathers still. But the problem is at higher revs and I have high vacuum at cruising speeds, so not sure it will work.

Rings were supposed to have seated on the dyno. Builder says no leaks or problems with the pcv connected on the dyno pulls. How can I seat them with a mvb that has engine braking in first only?

What's involved in fitting a vac pump, what do I need to change if anything pulley wise? I'm guessing I would have to go with a street friendly pump as my nearest track is 125 miles each way.

__________________
69 Firebird
472, KRE 85cc, Victor, 850xp, TH400, TSP 9.5" 4800, 3.90 10 bolt, Viking DA rears, QA1 single fronts, 3558lbs. best to date 10.90 @123
  #12  
Old 11-29-2023, 09:01 PM
Tim Corcoran's Avatar
Tim Corcoran Tim Corcoran is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Willow Spring, North Carolina
Posts: 4,627
Default

I don't know what valley pan you have as Butler sells four different types. In order for your PCV system to work correctly you need to have the Tomahawk valley pan, any of the others will suck oil. Butler sells the Tomahawk pan and it will clear roller lifters, it is identical to the factory valley pan with all the same baffling and correct hole for the factory grommet that holds the PCV valve. If you decide to go with a vacuum pump, Butler sells a vacuum pump kit that includes pretty much everything you will need. If you decide to go with a vacuum pump then you will need to eliminate the PCV system and will need the following valley pan.

Tomahawk valley pan to be used with PCV system
https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...3Dvalley%2Bpan

Sealed system valley pan to be used with vacuum pump
https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...3Dvalley%2Bpan

Vacuum pump kit
https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...Dvacuum%2Bpump

__________________
Tim Corcoran

Last edited by Tim Corcoran; 11-29-2023 at 09:26 PM.
  #13  
Old 11-29-2023, 10:01 PM
bhill86's Avatar
bhill86 bhill86 is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 519
Default

I’m unfamiliar with any butler pan with the exception of the one that’s basically a curved piece of aluminum with a grommet hole and a small baffle underneath. I too had the same issues you described which was oil sucked into the PCV valve and with it disconnected the dipstick being blown out at high rpm. I switched to a factory style and never had another issue. FWIW.

__________________
1977 Trans Am 400/4speed (swap)

Brian
  #14  
Old 11-30-2023, 03:29 AM
461-69bird's Avatar
461-69bird 461-69bird is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: England
Posts: 520
Default

Mine looks like the Tomahawk. That's a nice kit but by the time it's shipped to England and I've paid import taxes, I'm looking at over $2100.

__________________
69 Firebird
472, KRE 85cc, Victor, 850xp, TH400, TSP 9.5" 4800, 3.90 10 bolt, Viking DA rears, QA1 single fronts, 3558lbs. best to date 10.90 @123
  #15  
Old 11-30-2023, 07:20 AM
chuckies76ta's Avatar
chuckies76ta chuckies76ta is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,055
Default

Just a thought: You can just leave your valley pan in place and use a vacuum cap to seal the pcv fitting. You can also just put a rubber vacuum cap on the oil dipstick tube.

https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/d...c=ds#store=347

__________________
68 Firebird. IA2 block, 505 cu in, E-head, Solid roller 3650 weight. Reid TH400 4:11 gear. 29" slick.
Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft.
76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend,
468 with KRE D-ports, Doug headers, 3" Exh.
  #16  
Old 11-30-2023, 07:28 AM
chuckies76ta's Avatar
chuckies76ta chuckies76ta is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,055
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 461-69bird View Post
Mine looks like the Tomahawk. That's a nice kit but by the time it's shipped to England and I've paid import taxes, I'm looking at over $2100.

See if I have this right: British $1.00 pound is equal to $1.26 U.S. Is that correct?

So if someone (a friend) sends you a package do you still have to pay import charges?

__________________
68 Firebird. IA2 block, 505 cu in, E-head, Solid roller 3650 weight. Reid TH400 4:11 gear. 29" slick.
Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft.
76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend,
468 with KRE D-ports, Doug headers, 3" Exh.
  #17  
Old 11-30-2023, 11:00 AM
461-69bird's Avatar
461-69bird 461-69bird is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: England
Posts: 520
Default

Chuck,
If it was from a friend, it would be pot luck whether it gets inspected at customs. If they checked, it wouldn't be released until payment is made. Need to try and declare the value at under 140 but then of course you can't insure the item for more.

Anything bought from the US would be done like this, price of goods, plus shipping charge, plus 3.5% import duty then plus 20% tax of the total price.

__________________
69 Firebird
472, KRE 85cc, Victor, 850xp, TH400, TSP 9.5" 4800, 3.90 10 bolt, Viking DA rears, QA1 single fronts, 3558lbs. best to date 10.90 @123
  #18  
Old 12-01-2023, 08:46 AM
Tim Corcoran's Avatar
Tim Corcoran Tim Corcoran is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Willow Spring, North Carolina
Posts: 4,627
Default

It's very unusual to suck oil through the PCV valve with a factory valley pan or the Tomahawk. If you're SURE you have the Tomahawk then I suggest you get a new PCV valve, in case the PCV valve is malfunctioning and pulling too much vacuum. Then if it still sucks oil after installing a new valve then restrict the vacuum by inserting a section of smaller hose inside of your PCV hose to restrict the vacuum flow.

__________________
Tim Corcoran
  #19  
Old 12-01-2023, 04:55 PM
461-69bird's Avatar
461-69bird 461-69bird is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: England
Posts: 520
Default

Will do Tim

__________________
69 Firebird
472, KRE 85cc, Victor, 850xp, TH400, TSP 9.5" 4800, 3.90 10 bolt, Viking DA rears, QA1 single fronts, 3558lbs. best to date 10.90 @123
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:38 AM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017