[locomotivebreath]

I really dig my factory parts , I’m attached to them almost lol . I grew up with the origional qjet from my dad’s gto on my bedroom shelf because I thought it looked cool . Now after a trip to cliffs , it’s back in action on the same car ! There’s something gratifying about putting old equipment back in service . It seems like Chevy guys are the worst . They are almost hostile towards my qjets, or even that I kept the pontiac engine , origional distributor etc . They’ll call bs on my near 500 ftlbs of torque out of my 406 with ram air manifolds. & cliff built carb . I take it in stride but sometimes it’s just obnoxious . I’ve learned a lot from this forum and have saved a fortune on my resto by listening to the veterans on here & not trying every chrome wiz bang new part in the summit catalogue . I had an 82 Z when I was a kid and it ran great - probaly because I didn’t have any scratch to buy many aftermarket parts !

[Cliff R]

"Holley Street, Truck and Ultra Street Avenger carbs are all vacuum secondary. Where did your friend find an Avenger double pumper?"

It might be vacuum secondary, I had "double pumper" on my mind because that's what the engine builder asked me to build him for it. I do know for sure it was brand new right out of the box, nice and shiny too. What amazed me about the Holley more than anything else is that one would think it would fair pretty well in a work truck/towing application. Those engines are heavily loaded most of their lives, and this one is no exception as the truck pulls a really heavy wood chipper behind it everywhere it goes. I dropped the front bowl numerous times and tried going up and down in main jet size but it hated that deal and actually worked the best with what it showed up with.

The amount of fuel the engine was consuming with the Holley in place was nothing short of amazing. I didn't think a vehicle could get fuel mileage that bad even with an engine that had a little too much cam in it and single plane intake manifold. I'm not kidding when I say it was using $20 to go 20 miles, and when my friend made round trips to Columbus Ohio for tree work (50 miles away), it cost him over $100 in fuel that day!

Several times early Q-jets were mentioned on this thread, and I am NOT fond of anything made in 1965-66, and some of the 1967 models that used the early plunger valve/bypass system. I even shy away from restoring them here as they are pretty much hopeless. Those carbs gave Q-jets a bad reputation right out of the gate as Jon mentioned, which to this day survives in many "circles".

On the flip side of that coin I don't hear any Quadrajunk, Quadrabog, or negative comments when I'm sitting in staging lanes in final rounds and folks wonder over to check out my combination. The looks on their faces when they see the factory q-jet sitting on the stock intake.......PRICELESS!........Cliff

[mgarblik]

Sounds like your friend's "engine builder expert", was stuck in the mid 1970's with his recommended SBC parts list. How many thousands of SBC's were rebuilt with those parts, so they could be thrown intro a rusty Camaro or Chevelle and "thunder" down the quarter mile in the mid to high 15 second bracket??. As you have mentioned, he would have been so much better off with a stock rebuild, a RV cam grind of some kind, an iron intake and one of your nice Q-jets. With that set-up, he would be hauling the mulch with decent torque and be getting 8-10 MPG.

[Cliff R]

When my friend first approached me after spinning a bearing in the original 350 2bbl truck engine I told him that instead of building a new engine we would order a GM crate short block instead, then outfit it with his heads, intake, carb, distributor, stock cam, etc.

He told me at that time that there was this guy who built SBC's locally, even quite a few for "race" applications and was very well known and offered to do the job for him in exchange for some tree work. He said that he had a 406 that was supposed to go into some local guys 1987 Monte Carlo SS, but the job fell thru so it was being finished up for his truck instead. He mentioned using a Comp Cam from Summit, and new Edelbrock intake, etc, etc......I immediately knew he was in trouble based on my past experiences with this sort of thing and these sort of folks.

The very first time I saw he new engine I couldn't believe how "cobbled" up the assembly was. The radiator and shroud were being held in by small wire ties and nothing else. I didn't even ask where the original supports went so made a couple of metal brackets for him instead then used self tapping bolts thru the shroud to keep it from moving around.

The spark plug wires have soup cans over the straight boot to keep the headers from melting them. The wires are so long they run out over the inner fenders and wire tied in numerous places to keep them from sagging and falling down on the frame. I noticed the "hacked" steel fuel line next, braided rubber hose, clear glass filter and hose clamps keeping all of it in check. Then I looked down and the alternator is not well lined up at all, and "cobbled" mounting as the early Camel Hump SBC heads lack the necessary accessory bolt holes for the brackets.

I could go on here for page after page, but I think you get the picture........pure "hack" in every area. I'd hate to see the insides of the engine and would have to chisel it apart looking at the 5 pounds of RTV squeezed out everyplace to keep it from leaking!........Cliff

[Half-Inch Stud]

Yea sounds like one of them Chevy "Form-a-headache" Permatec Blue gasket maker builders.

[67drake]

When I had my GTO engine rebuilt I brought the original ‘71 263 Q-jet (rebuilt by me using Cliffs parts and advice) and points distributor to the engine dyno session. The guy tried to talk me into putting a Holly and MSD on it before the engine was even fired up. I told him “No,I’m going to run as many original parts as I can”. He was not too happy with me,oh well. He recurved the distributor on his Sun machine before he dropped it in. The engine fired up and ran like crap! I said ok throw another carb on it if you have to. Same thing ran bad and timing is a mile off. I ended up taking it home with no pull made. I put my Qjet on and pulled the distributor- He had the points gapped at .002”! I set the points and it has been running like a raped ape since.

[Tom Vaught]

He got you on that deal. He did not make a mistake on his distributor machine. Some guys are "payback' guys. The Midwest boys have that attitude, my way or I screw it up for you so you do not run.

Tom V.

[HWYSTR455]

I've seen a lot of that everywhere Tom, it's not a location thing for that mentality, it's everywhere. Trying to find folks that aren't like that is a challenge.

I've spoken to many 'experts' too, and have a 'way' of doing things, everything else is 'wrong'. One of my favorite chuckles is when someone says 'I've been doing it this way for years'. When I hear that, I know to run. Instantly the thought that runs through my head is 'you've been doing it wrong all these years and haven't learned yet?'.

Anyone that thinks they can take a consumer part right out of the box and bolt it on, expecting to have flawless function, is deluded. To have that kind of blind trust, and to accept that risk, is just foolish. You HAVE to go over EVERYTHING before putting it into use, period.

My father used to tell me as a kid, if you want it done right, do it yourself. Wow have I found out the hard way that this is a very true statement. There's exceptions to all phrases/rules, but every time I overlook this statement, I seem to pay for it. What bothers me most is, especially as I get older, I don't always have the time (or patience sometimes) to do the job myself, and have to rely on someone else.

A friend is building a car, his first real hands-on 'project' to this level, is losing patience, and was looking at shops to drag it to and have them finished. Uhg. If I weren't a friend, I'd let him do it, and only provide a warning. I hate hearing about folks that take something somewhere to have work done, pay a large sum of money for substandard work, and end up having to fix everything the shop did anyway (sometimes items that they broke too). And it always seems to be a 'reputable' shop, or a 'buddy' that had good luck with them. No one is going to do as good a job as yourself, if you put the time and effort that's needed into it. Sometimes that takes a lot of homework, and sometimes it takes a couple tries, but in the end, there is no better person to do the job.

.

[track73]

Interesting stuff. I have a friend who owns a 69 Corvette. His cam took a crap, so he wanted to redo his "vette" with a crate Chevy LS engine. Since I had a bunch of "extra" small block stuff laying around. (A block, .001 under bearings .030 rings and other misc parts)I talked him into letting me build a 383 for him. We bought a crank pistons , rods and hydraulic roller aluminum heads and made a real good street engine. He liked the engine but it idled "funny". Here's where it gets interesting, I convinced him to get and Cliffs carb for it since I had a few 800 Qjets laying around and Cliff has such a good reputation. For some reason the idle on the car would still raise and lower when stopped in traffic. This aggravated him and eventually bought an computerized fuel injection to eliminate the problem. He gave me the carb and I put it on a mild Chevy 400 I had on a test stand. The engine idled just fine, so it now sits on my .030 over 455 and I couldn't be happier. No problems any where, gets such good mileage plus it passed emissions with no adjustments. Just sayin'. Go Cliff.

[67drake]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

He got you on that deal. He did not make a mistake on his distributor machine. Some guys are "payback' guys. The Midwest boys have that attitude, my way or I screw it up for you so you do not run.

Tom V.

Yup. The only guy I could find at the time with Pontiac dyno headers. I got screwed on the deal , live and learn I guess.
The stories I could tell about another local “go to” engine builder are not much better. One example is my wife’s cousin. He is restoring a’70 Cuda. Original engine and 4speed car. I advised him NOT to take it to this builder,but he didn’t listen. He had them also install the engine and get it running after they rebuilt his 340. They put the usual Edelbrock carb,valve covers, and air cleaner on it. A MSD distributor and box. Also chrome headers. He wanted it to be or at least look original. He still can’t get it to idle below 1200 RPM and it only has a mild cam in it. Has to start it with ether last time I stopped by. Under hood looks like someone went nuts with Chinese Ebay junk. It’s a shame after the rotisserie Resto he had done on the body

[chiphead]

I find that many "hot rod gurus" dont really understand how engines or trannys work. They just parrot the same tired assumptions out of laziness.

My wife's cousin was given a '75 Volare. Avacado green 4 door. He took the slant six out and swapped in a low compression Chrysler B 400 and 727 out of a junkyard '78 new yorker. He called summit and they sold him a 600cfm spreadbore TQ replacement Holley and some goofy aftermarket intake. Since the linkage wasn't right on the holley, the TV cable wasn't right and the tranny burned up.

Instead of fixing it the right way, the local tranny "guru" set the unit up as a forward manual valve body with no TV cable. So it's totally unstreetable and shifts like a sledgehammer. He's since lost interest, so the car sits in the corner of my yard collecting pollen. I've tried to tune that Holley. First I removed the manual choke butterfly that was tied open and kept falling shut. Then I jetted up the carb a few jet sizes and recurved the distributor. It runs just good enough to cut the grass under it.

Anybody need a Volare?

[HWYSTR455]

In the 80s, acquaintance had a 71 GTO, 400 4-speed car, he bought it from the original owner, stripped car, manual steering, brakes (drum), no power nuthin. Guy bought it to race. He did a few years of track with it and it sat in his yard. Orange car, oxidized like heck, and rear window corner rusted, which leaked into trunk, and trunk floor rotted some. Totally save-able. He bought it for 1000, all it needed was a clutch.

He tried to do one himself, twice, and kept burning up clutches. Took it to 2 shops after that, both times, clutch lasted maybe a couple weeks, always slipped.

He sold it to me for 700, I go to put a clutch in it, thing was cooked. Throw out was too tall. I go to the store, buy a clutch kit over the counter, general replacement thing, look at it, and it's the wrong throw out bearing. I tell the counter guy, it's the wrong one, and he says 'that's what the book says'. I told him I knew it was wrong, and he was so perplexed and couldn't understand how the 'computer' can be wrong.

.

[carbking]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

He got you on that deal. He did not make a mistake on his distributor machine. Some guys are "payback' guys. The Midwest boys have that attitude, my way or I screw it up for you so you do not run.

Tom V.

Am really enjoying the personal experiences in this thread.

Tom - in playing with cars for almost 60 years now, I have yet to find someone vindictive like you have described. Obviously, they exist, but I have never personally experienced this issue.

It would seem today, with the roasting capability of the internet forums; anyone that did so would be committing business suicide.

Jon.

[SRR]

Took a set of pistons to a machine shop to be pressed on to some really nice stock rods (came of of a low mile 350 that didn't have spun bearings) I had. I CLEARLY marked the box "DO NOT RESIZE" and told them the same, I go to pick them up and they have been resized. The guy gets all huffy with me saying they needed it! I say no they didn't plus I didn't give you permission or get a phone call so I'm not paying for that. Then the guy loses my lifter cover, I get the block back and ask is it ready to assemble, he says yeah, just put it together. I took it home and did a final cleaning on the oil passages and it was filthy with black crap flowing out. I stopped using that jerk and warn off others.

[chiphead]

I could fill this thread with me being the victim of jakeleg work. It's actually a bit embarrassing to think of all the ways I got screwed or shortchanged before I knew better.

I had a '96 dodge dakota that I really liked. Silver and green, extended cab, 318 magnum and A518 AOD trans. 3.55s with Powertrax locker, 3" single exhaust, bolt-ons, stereo, etc etc. At about 120K miles the tranny let go. I had a local shop rebuild it to stock. It was never right again. It kept randomly burning up and destroying the internals of the transmission. Loss of lubrication. It went back to them on a wrecker many a time. You could hear them cussing and throwing chit when it came back. I eventually put a bumper sticker on it that said "honk if parts fall off". The exhaust fell off because the left the manifold bolts loose. So back it went, loudly. They saw the bumper sticker, missing manifold bolts and went bezerk. After the 6th or 7th rebuild in 18 months, the shop told me to pound sand. I figure they lost their azz on that job, between the tow bills and free rebuilds.

I had it towed to another shop, who found the checkball in the cooler line was sticking shut due to debris and the tranny would burn up. They could rebuild it for another $1300. I was so disgusted by that time, I sold the truck for $1800, with transmission #8 dead.

[Ryche400]

Im by no means an expert. But ive built my share of carbs. A little of everything. I built a Qjet for a buddy's 79 Trans Am for last year's Bandit Run. We live in deep south Texas. So just getting to the start of the run, he had to drive 9 hours.
Nedless to say, he was ecstatic about the fuel mileage he got. Year before, he was using a Holley 600. Another customer totally shocked by the fuel mileage/performance of his "new" Qjet. He said, I'll never use a Holley again.

[Cliff R]

A few years ago one of our customers called me about the carb we built him for his late model T/A. He said that he drove the car quite a distance to the T/A Nat's. It was 455 powered, not a wild build but close to 1hp/CID. He left the stock gears in place, they were around mid 2's nearly as I can remember and non OD 3 speed automatic transmission. He logged the miles and fuel used, and amazingly he got right at 18mpg for the trip!

I owned a really nice 1967 Impala SS for quite a few years until someone decided they wanted it more than I did. It was restored, original 327 SBC completely rebuilt with the original factory heads, stock intake, 1969 Chevy Q-jet, exhaust manifolds, etc. I backed it up with a 4L60 OD transmission, custom built non-LU converter and 3.31 gears. It averaged 18mpg's and would get 23-24mpg on long trips on the highway. I even logged 25mpg on one trip from Williamsburg Va to Quantico and back when I was still on active duty.......Cliff

[ck67goat]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

....My father used to tell me as a kid, if you want it done right, do it yourself. Wow have I found out the hard way that this is a very true statement. There's exceptions to all phrases/rules, but every time I overlook this statement, I seem to pay for it. What bothers me most is, especially as I get older, I don't always have the time (or patience sometimes) to do the job myself, and have to rely on someone else......



.

Amen to that. I'm going back to a reputable shop that supports a "race team" just to fix a few leaks on a car which was supposed to be what they were to fix in the first place. Normally I do this stuff on my own, but was pressed for time. Seems good mechanics are becoming very scarce even to do relatively simple jobs.

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by ck67goat

Seems good mechanics are becoming very scarce even to do relatively simple jobs.

Reminds me of an experience from a few months ago. My wife had a slow leak from one of her tires. I told her to take by our local tire shop (usually a very good, old school shop) and have them fix it.
I come home that evening and she said they didn't fix it. 'Why not?', asks I..
She says, 'The guy looked at it and said he didn't see a nail'.
'Huh?' I said, 'He's not supposed to be looking for a nail. He's supposed to be looking for a leak!'...
I went out and found it in less than a minute with the old soapy water trick. I put a big piece of masking tape on the wheel with a big arrow pointing to the spot and wrote 'NAIL' there...lol
I noticed that guy didn't last long at the shop. I think he may have been someone's relative.

[mgarblik]

I will throw in a little shameless plug for the school I retired from, Sinclair Community College. There is so much talk on this thread about shoddy work and being unable to find good shops. A few have said "just do everything yourself". For some, the next thought is "how"? A community College like the one I taught at for 32 years is a great resource. We had classes in most areas that would enable you to completely rebuild your engine, re-wire and replace all the engine performance related components on your car, do brake work, suspension work, you name it. And if you live in my county in Ohio, it is TUITION FREE if you are over 55 years old. Heck of a deal. There must be other colleges in the US with similar capabilities and zero or low tuition. The sense of satisfaction doing as much as possible yourself, correctly, is tremendous.