[Cliff R]

That's pretty much all I got out of 13 pages of reading and trying to help. The pistons in backwards, possibly a couple of connecting rods in backwards as well, knurled valve guides and a POS Comp multiple keyway timing set.

Maybe a $400 aftermarket harmonic balancer will help keep it all together?...........

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

To find the actual ICL, we placed the Dial indicator over the edge of the Intake Valves Hydraulic Lifter and measured the duration of the Cam @ .050" on both sides of the Valve duration Ramps by passing the .050" mark on the Dial Indicator first then moving toward the .100" mark first then rotating back to exactly 050", where we took our readings off the Degree wheel # and recorded that number, adding those numbers and dividing by two equals 112 degrees for the Intake c/l and 115 degrees for the Exhaust c/l, then to obtain the lobe separation angle we added these two numbers and divided by two equals 113.5 degrees.

We advanced the Valve Timing from 113.5 to 109.5 by using the Comp Cam four-way Crank Gear, each notch is two degrees according to their directions, thus the fourth notch equals 8 degrees at the Crank and that means 4 degrees at the Cam. Because the Crank rotates twice, 720 degrees and the Cam rotates once 360 degrees. 360 degrees at the Crank equals 180 degrees on the cam, the Crank spins 2x the Cams one. Half a turn at the Cam is equal to one rotation of the Crank.

.

OK you used the .050 method with a dial indicator. As Jay mentioned I hope you went back and checked again after you moved the crank gear.

Those crank/cam gears, as well as keyways on the cam and crank themselves are notorious for being off a few thou here and there affecting the degree readings. So just because it says 4 degrees or 8 degrees on the crank gear, doesn't mean that's what it moved. It could have be 5 or 6 or only 2 or 3. It'll have to be checked again if you want accuracy. In most cases from my experience you end up a half degree or even a full degree one way or the other and that's as close as it gets.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Kenth

https://www.amesperf.com/parts/13651/

With all the talk about doing this and that with blocks and heads and god knows what, you're going to continue to build the engine with 7 pistons backwards?

I have no problem with the pistons in backwards. I would turn the 8th one around (backward) make sure the rods are correct direction on the crank and call it a day.

Stan

["QUICK-SILVER"]

What is piston deck height on this project?

Pistons "look like" stock.

That 1/10th of an inch extra stroke should have pistons above deck with stock rods and stock pistons.

How was oil clearance on the rod bearings measured? And did the top half of the bearings get inspected?

The throws with .005" oil clearance are a bit much.

Given your location and engine temp problems... I would do some serious homework on SCR and DCR before running that cam advanced more than what's ground in.

And there's more
Clay

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Every 9-way timing set from comp I have ever seen is designed so each key affects the cam timing by 2*.

-8*, -6*, -4*, -2*, 0*, 2*, 4*, 6*, 8*

I hope the cam was degreed in after the cam timing was changed. The 9-way timing sets are designed to change the cam timing in 2* increments, regardless of the crank turning twice as fast as the cam.


Sometimes harmonic balancers fail because something on the inside of the engine creates an unusual stress on it. It could be having one piston in backwards contributed to the cracked hub.

The Gears were set to "no" advance to start, yes.


It sounds like you don't think that the Trans. accident that I had destroyed my TH 400. Due to running over a root, under a driveway, that caused an upward push under the Trans Oil Pan while the Engine was running caused a forward Thrusting movement to all the internal shafts in the Trans., carrying through to the Engines Crank shaft, then the Hub? Several people said that the Crank Harmonic Balancer Hub breaks at the key way often enough for other reasons. Since I don't know, I reasoned that this is how, in this case, the Hub became unusable.

Your theory is as good as mine. Being that I found the broken Hub after the Trans. rebuild and that it was after the accident in the garage running the vehicle is when I experienced the Ghost noise first and then again when I first began to test and tune the rebuilt Trans, I stick with moving on with fixing the locations that I have been convinced will do the best, in this case. For the last ten years I have been jumping over Hurdles trying to move past one problem or another, since they happen at different times I address them as so, one at a time. This fix is $600 having the Heads remanufactured, $210 in gaskets, some miss. items and next will be the new Hub or combination of a Hub and Harmonic Balancer, I found a respectable Billet unit for $210-$230.

$ 1000 is the limit for cash, at this time, I will take my chances and keep my fingers crossed. However, rite you are, in stating that I should rebuild the bottom end now, due keep in mind that the car has been off the road now for two years due to the Trans. rebuild. Time to save some more money, besides I am curious enough to find out whether or not I have correctly diagnosed the noise anomaly. I will squeeze the miles out of this Crank case, I am guessing I have at least 50k hidden usable miles to use, but who is to say I hope there is more.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

OK you used the .050 method with a dial indicator. As Jay mentioned I hope you went back and checked again after you moved the crank gear.

Those crank/cam gears, as well as keyways on the cam and crank themselves are notorious for being off a few thou here and there affecting the degree readings. So just because it says 4 degrees or 8 degrees on the crank gear, doesn't mean that's what it moved. It could have been 5 or 6 or only 2 or 3. It'll have to be checked again if you want accuracy. In most cases, from my experience, you end up a half degree or even a full degree one way or the other and that's as close as it gets.

We too determined about 3/4-3/4 degrees Dwell/slop on either side of the original Balancer line. All the Cam specs. work out nearly perfectly to the self-made Cam card, that we manufactured from online sources.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

I have no problem with the pistons in backwards. I would turn the 8th one around (backward) make sure the rods are correct direction on the crank and call it a day.

Stan

Perhaps that is my next project, this one is winding down, the machinist called today, wanting to know what vehicle my motor was in, so he can look up some parts. I told him to look up any 1967 Pontiac, that used the 428 ci Engine, HO was an upgrade option for all 1967 vehicles or so I read.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

What is piston deck height on this project?

Pistons "look like" stock.

That 1/10th of an inch extra stroke should have pistons above deck with stock rods and stock pistons.

How was oil clearance on the rod bearings measured? And did the top half of the bearings get inspected?

The throws with .005" oil clearance are a bit much.

Given your location and engine temp problems... I would do some serious homework on SCR and DCR before running that cam advanced more than what's ground in.

And there's more
Clay

We did not measure from the center of the Crank to the top of the Deck; however, the piston is flat in the center and we used a straight edge bolted down and placed a feeler gauge in between the TDC of the number one-cylinder Piston and found 0.035". This is from memory, when My roommate comes home, I will ask him, I am thinking a little more than that. So, the Piston is not past the Deck for sure. We are performing a cooling mod. while the Heads are off, theoretically netting us 10 - 30 degrees cooler, we will see. Here is the Oil Temp. results:

RPM 190 degrees 220 degrees
500 20 psi 15 psi
700 20 psi 15 psi
900 25 psi 20 psi
1000 25 psi 20 psi
1500 30 psi 25 psi
2000 35 psi 30 psi

You said:

"That 1/10th of an inch extra stroke should have pistons above deck with stock rods and stock pistons."

Considering this a stock motor, my roommate took measurements the best way he could, at the time. The rods are stock length.

Note: The Deck is not cut down, we know this because we can read the Piston letter code on each of the eight cylinders.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

That's pretty much all I got out of 13 pages of reading and trying to help. The pistons in backwards, possibly a couple of connecting rods in backwards as well, knurled valve guides and a POS Comp multiple keyway timing set.

Maybe a $400 aftermarket harmonic balancer will help keep it all together?...........

(1) Cooling mod. will cool from 10 degrees up to 30 degrees or so I read.
(2) Block off the Head crossovers.
(3) Heads are being remanufactured.
(4) Harmonic Balancer Repair.
(5) New gaskets to close the Intake, Heads Exhaust, Water pump etc...
(6) Inspection as we go.
(7) Detailing the Engine compartment and under the vehicle.
(8) New antifreeze.
(9) New oil change and filter.
(10) Flush Block.
(11) Engine paint and parts paint.
(12) complete electrical inspection as we go.
(13) Research and Development as we learn Mechanics 101.
(14) Now that we learned of the Pistons being installed backwards and that the Rod orientation needs to be inspected, we plain on performing that job in the future. We must crawl before we walk. I need to see what affect the current repairs made, so I can tell the difference when we address the lower end ones.

[Kenth]

What is difficult for the vast majority of people to understand is how you can carry out all these actions on an engine where pistons (and possibly connecting rods) are mounted the wrong way?
Is it just because you want to recreate the engine noise you are talking about? Wouldn't it be better to build the engine correct from the start and get an engine that is quiet and works as intended instead of doing it allover again in the "future"?
Why crawl when you can walk or even run?

JMHO

[78w72]

One member asked about how oil clearance on the rod bearings were measured, then oil psi at certain engine temps was posted, oil temps are not the same as engine coolant temps.

Nobody questioned the rod length, they mentioned how the pistons should be at or above the deck in that arrangement, they are stock rods so of course they are stock length.

.035 pistons below deck seems rather low, anyone care to comment on that? Most builds try to get a lot tighter or even zero decked for optimum quench, .035 is far from ideal & no "racer" would do that if they were trying to get extra power.

Ive seen plenty of balancers with cracked hubs that, 1- werent caused by damage to the trans, just time & wear &/or internal engine balance problems over time. 2- didnt make any noises or vibrations with a cracked but not completely failed hub and the crank bolt was still tight.

I hope youre right on that theory but my 2 cents on the "ghost" noise is it wasnt from the balancer or the first claim of using 4" dryer duct on the exhaust, you said you tested the car for awhile after the trans rebuild, so if the balancer is what made that noise from being cracked... logic & reason would say it should have done it right away on first start up.

Just trying to provide some other perspective on this ordeal, guessing & assumptions are kinda pointless... with all this effort & money on fixing the heads, a few hundred more dollars & some time would be well worth it to inspect &/or fix the bottom end issues with pistons & rods. Why put that off now when everything is already apart only to hope you fixed the unknown noise but still have wacky pistons/rods.. then have to tear it all down or remove the engine again & buy hundreds of dollars in gaskets, again?

Best of luck on your plan but common sense says to do it now the right way.

[Cliff R]

Guys, I already provided DIRECT experience with an engine assembled with offset factory type pistons installed in the WRONG direction. 10,000 miles of grief, noise (piston slap) or "rocking" as they cross TDC, and it never sealed up well....it went on deaf ears

My engine was removed without knowing what the problem was, discovered the problem, corrected the problem and 90,000 more miles without any issues whatsoever including getting rid of the "odd" noise it made from the moment you started it up that you just couldn't nail down a cause for. It never went completely away, and got bad enough toward the end it forced pulling the engine to find out what it was.

Anytime you have something right in front of you, problems are discovered, it's within easy reach to correct them, it needs to be done. Anything less just doesn't cut it in this game. Even worse here connecting rod orientation isn't known. When I installed 8 pistons in the wrong direction ALL of my connecting rods were in the right orientation, flats running together and chamfers to the outside.

Here steps weren't even taken to know if the rods are in backwards, or not, and even worse 7 out of 8 pistons in backwards and one facing the right direction is likely to cause issues with harmonics as things wear on.

I must have missed the part about the pistons being .035" or WAY down in the holes at TDC. That NEVER works out well either when teamed up with a .050" thick head gasket. Pontiac engines using factory heads with flat chamber floors are more sensitive to that deal than others I've worked with over the years. No engine here ever goes together with more than .040" quench for any reason. I've worked on enough piss poor running Pontiac engines builds in my time to know better. One common denominator with every single running hot, overheating and pinging on pump gas Pontiac build I've been asked to assist with has had WAY too much quench in it, no exceptions........FWIW......

[Formulajones]

.035 below deck doesn't surprise me. Even though the method of measurement probably wasn't super precise, it's still pretty typical of stock OEM engines.

[Cliff R]

Most I've checked before taking them apart have been closer to .015-.018" unless they were using aftermarket pistons. Most 400 replacement pistons with the eight valve reliefs were in the .035-.050" range below the deck at TDC. They also lower the compression ratio over half a point. I've NEVER had a good experience with one of these engines with that much quench in them, especially if the "short" pistons were teamed up with later heads with huge combustion chambers in them, and why NOTHING goes together here with more than .040" quench distance for any reason.

I've been following this thread and trying to help, but my suggestions have been ignored for some reason. It appears the OP talks himself into alternate methods of repair to keep as much money in the wallet as possible. I certainly get that. WAY back when I installed 8 pistons backwards I had to fart in my pocket to have a cent. It was very difficult to accept the fact that I messed up the build and had to remove the engine and spend more money on it. I was raising my kids and pretty much check to check at that time. Even so I bit the bullet and did it the right way, then was nicely rewarded with a PERFECT end result, even though it was pretty painful on the bank account at that time........FWIW......

[Jay S]

The engine is pretty far apart right now, pulling the engine out from this point is about as easy as it can be. Probably cost a pan gasket and whatever labor it takes at the machine shop to reorient the piston or pistons so they are all the same, and you have piece of mind that it is together right. Usually rod bearings get replaced on an inspection like that, main bearings may be fine, so it would be a bit over $100 to make it right. If there is something major wrong on the inspection, it wouldn’t have ran long anyway if it was just bolted back together, and the efforts to this point would be time wasted.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Most I've checked before taking them apart have been closer to .015-.018" unless they were using aftermarket pistons. Most 400 replacement pistons with the eight valve reliefs were in the .035-.050" range below the deck at TDC. They also lower the compression ratio over half a point. I've NEVER had a good experience with one of these engines with that much quench in them, especially if the "short" pistons were teamed up with later heads with huge combustion chambers in them, and why NOTHING goes together here with more than .040" quench distance for any reason.

I've been following this thread and trying to help, but my suggestions have been ignored for some reason. It appears the OP talks himself into alternate methods of repair to keep as much money in the wallet as possible. I certainly get that. WAY back when I installed 8 pistons backwards I had to fart in my pocket to have a cent. It was very difficult to accept the fact that I messed up the build and had to remove the engine and spend more money on it. I was raising my kids and pretty much check to check at that time. Even so I bit the bullet and did it the right way, then was nicely rewarded with a PERFECT end result, even though it was pretty painful on the bank account at that time........FWIW......

Maybe he likes other peoples ideas about what to do better than yours.

Stan

[Cliff R]

Like STOOPID suggestions to leave the 7 pistons in backwards and one in the right direction...........

[steve25]

I would like to request a whole new thread be started to better reference how things and issues have shifted since at this point it’s dam far from being about the cam any more!

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

I have no problem with the pistons in backwards. I would turn the 8th one around (backward) make sure the rods are correct direction on the crank and call it a day.

Stan

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Like STOOPID suggestions to leave the 7 pistons in backwards and one in the right direction...........

While not in a Pontiac I have not had the same problems as you running pistons backward.

Seem some others have not had the same problems as you running pistons backwards in a Pontiac.

Installing pistons backwards
https://firstgenfirebird.org/forums/...32&type=thread

Stan

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

While not in a Pontiac I have not had the same problems as you running pistons backward.

Seem some others have not had the same problems as you running pistons backwards in a Pontiac.

Installing pistons backwards
https://firstgenfirebird.org/forums/...32&type=thread

Stan

I compare Mechanics to Doctors and Medicine, because of the cause and effects on the body and the various treatments, trying to get the best treatment and medication best suited for each problem a patient comes in with.

Now, Mike has a problem with his Engine, there are many things happening, the more I dig deeper into this Engine.

I decided to repair the Cracked and damaged parts that I see today, only. There is no doubt that the unknown bottom end is not going anywhere so, it will be addressed in due time, regardless of anyone being disappointed with me, thank God you people care so much about the Pontiac Auto s continuation to survive.

Here is where we are at, it turns out that the Intake Valve seats were the ones that were milled down to accept positive seals, I stand corrected on that one, most likely done from the factory, from what you say.

As far as the Exhaust seat bosses are concerned, the Head Mechanic elected to use the black type Umbrella seals (with no lip on top) that fit tightly over the boss, rather than milling the Exhaust Bosses down for the positive seals. The Head Mechanic used the Umbrella type seal shown in the photo (posted in an earlier thread) that was black and had "no" upper lip to grab the Valve stem, unlike the Umbrella seal that I used, that stuck to the Valve stem.

In addition, one Exhaust Valve, that is located between the center of the "D"-port center area, where it is written "670" has 3 hairline cracks on the side facing the Piston. These same two Exhaust Valves received the new hardened Valve seats. Thus, it is a good thing we are performing the Pontiac cooling mod. with the 421-cooling mod.
Lou, my roommate is in the kitchen drilling the last 2 holes, one in each Head for the final part of the operation. We drill slowly with oil and work our way up in size until we are just short of the hole in the Head gasket, the last drill is to debur the cooling jacket hole.

The Stroke was measured using a depth gauge and caliper, inside the cylinder, as the piston was down in the bore.

Number one cyl. @ TDC to Deck clearance is +/- 0.023"
The thickness of the new Butler innovated metal ringed Head gasket un-crushed is 0.057".

The Deck is uncut and the letters used to denote the Pistons for that particular cylinder are easily read.

One member asked how the oil clearance on the Rod clearance was read? Ans: Using a feeler gauge from side-to-side play. We did "not" remove the Main Bearings nor the Piston Caps.

The reason for this thread being used is because it had not been used in a while. So, I elected to continue it with my information since I started this thread in the first place. I like to be able to share my information with others so that they can get the most of the internet experience without jumping around all over the place. Plus, it is good for me to remind myself if I need to.

All Ideas are welcome, different or not, I only learn from the ones that know more than myself. I absorb everything you say and you are all correct in what you believe in your own experiences, I take every word in stride.

The motor is going back together, the Heads are back, we are drilling the 421 mod. holes tonight and just finished them. One Exhaust Valve is un-usable and was replaced, due to 3 hairline fractures in the Valve face. There was too much heat I would say, in the center port area that is shared by two Exhaust Valves adjacent to one other. The 421 mod should clear up that problem, since the two cooling hole jackets merge with the new holes that we made; we inserted a long wire through them to prove it will work, by the way.

Question: I need solving, moving on past the Pistons of course, is what Harmonic Dampener to purchase.

(A)I am looking into 1967 HB Summit, PQX-2438940, $209.87, SFI rating, 18.1, Billet steel in black epoxy.

(B)Gimmick or not? FLUID GEL DAMPERS SFI RATED 254550 $222.87 in black epoxy,

I wonder what crankshaft pully hole = 3, effects installing it on my 428 Motor on both A and B means.

(C) eBay: # 265577079296 Pioneer DA 4551 $78.26

(D) Jegs ATI $111.68 085 - 916500

(E) Butler SUPER DAMPER ATI 916500 $159 95
AVAILABLE IN ALUMINUM OR STEEL.

I wonder if aluminum unsprung wait on the internal moving reciprocal parts would be worth having for takeoff reasons vs. steels strength for longevity, since the Harmonic Balancer already cracked in this area, is it worth anything?


(F) OPG(G240633) $247.99 Hub and Dampener SFI
Balancer, 2 pc, 1960-67 Pontiac
ORIGINAL PARTS GROUP.