[Will]

Hey guys,

I guess I should start a new thread about these questions...

First off: Torque Plates. There is a small machine shop near my house that I trust and that I have a good relationship with. They're not exactly what I'd call a "high performance" shop though they do build a few dirt-track motors. I know they'd work with me to build a Pontiac to my specs (and they have built a few low-budget Pontiacs) but they don't have a set of Pontiac torque plates. Since I'm trying to build as efficient an engine as possible, and even considering Total Seal or C&A ZGS rings for the new engine I'm wondering how big of a deal the torque plate issue is, and/or how I could get a set of torque plates into their hands. Any suggestions?

Second question is finish hone for moly rings. One thing the last machine shop did right (out of everything they did wrong) was put a finish on the cylinder walls that nearly instantly sealed the moly rings. I NEVER detected any blowby with my engine. The last time I talked to the guy running the show up there he said they'd found that a lot of times moly rings don't seal right because shops put the wrong finish on the cylinder walls and they'd found a certain finish that works really well. Since the shop near my house that I'm now considering having the work done at has told me that moly rings don't seal well, I suspect they don't use the right finish for them. What kind of finish should be put on a cylinder wall to ensure that Moly rings will seal right up like in my last engine? Again, any suggestions much appreciated.

Thanks!
-Will

[Will]

Hey guys,

I guess I should start a new thread about these questions...

First off: Torque Plates. There is a small machine shop near my house that I trust and that I have a good relationship with. They're not exactly what I'd call a "high performance" shop though they do build a few dirt-track motors. I know they'd work with me to build a Pontiac to my specs (and they have built a few low-budget Pontiacs) but they don't have a set of Pontiac torque plates. Since I'm trying to build as efficient an engine as possible, and even considering Total Seal or C&A ZGS rings for the new engine I'm wondering how big of a deal the torque plate issue is, and/or how I could get a set of torque plates into their hands. Any suggestions?

Second question is finish hone for moly rings. One thing the last machine shop did right (out of everything they did wrong) was put a finish on the cylinder walls that nearly instantly sealed the moly rings. I NEVER detected any blowby with my engine. The last time I talked to the guy running the show up there he said they'd found that a lot of times moly rings don't seal right because shops put the wrong finish on the cylinder walls and they'd found a certain finish that works really well. Since the shop near my house that I'm now considering having the work done at has told me that moly rings don't seal well, I suspect they don't use the right finish for them. What kind of finish should be put on a cylinder wall to ensure that Moly rings will seal right up like in my last engine? Again, any suggestions much appreciated.

Thanks!
-Will

[Steve C.]

Will,
I would use the torque plate.... it's worth some HP. Check to see if a local Pontiac club has access to one.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Question? If you were satisfied with the honing job of the other shop, why not go back? Is this a race or street engine as there are different steps I use depending on application for moly rings. Yes for torque plates as I have seen up to .002 distorsion after bolting on the plates, BTW torque the main caps too! If "hard" street/strip use, fill the block below the middle freeze plug also. Later, http://PontiacPower.cc

[Steve C.]

After my post above I started thinking about the subject further so I went to some "reading material" I have on hand to get some opinions on how much HP can be gained. Here are some comments:
Source #1, "Block must be bored with a torque plate. The engine will lose 25 hp without it". Source #2, "When honing, use a torque plate. This is an easy 15 hp in rounder bores and is necessary if you want to run a low tension oil ring, ehich is worth at least 10 horses more".
While were on the subject here is a question, do you need to use the torque plate for both boring & honing or just during the honing operation? FWIW my engine builder says that just during the honing is sufficient.

[Will]

Pontiac Dude,

The only thing I'd go back to the machine shop that built my previous engine for would be to throw the completely trashed block and crank through their front window. I paid those clowns a wheelbarrow full of money three years ago when I didn't know any better to build me a blueprinted, kick-ass 400 and it was never anything but problems. First the valvetrain wasn't setup right and I had to fix it myself because they kept telling me it was just that the valves were adjusted too tight, or too loose, or whatever. After I figured out the springs were dangerously close to coil bind and the geometry was off and fixed it myself it ran good for a short time, then at 1500 miles, while driving on the freeway, it spun three main bearings and trashed my original '72 400 block and crank. Upon disassembly I also found the #8 piston had a sticky wristpin and was badly scored up.

Now get this: After this happened I've had three people say "oh, you had the work done at Jim Green's, didn't you?". I didn't tell them beforehand where the work was done, but they guessed the name of the place right when I told them what happened. What does that tell you about that shop's reputation among Pontiac enthusiasts? If only I'd known then what I know now....

Anyway, I need to find a different shop and there just don't seem to be many really good shops near me. The ones the racers all use are in Tacoma or Everett, which are a 30-40 minute drive from Seattle if you drive during non-rush hours (which is almost never around here - Nation's 3rd worst traffic). I have a relationship with this shop near my house, they're good guys and would work with me to accomplish what I want and that's real important. If I can tell them what finish to put on the cylinder walls and can get them a set of torque plates then I'm real confident I can get good quality work out of them. Not to mention I'll be able to stop in and watch the progress and measure everything before it leaves their shop.

So, that's where I'm at right now. Any help is much appreciated, I really want to get my Formula back on the road before summer's over.

Thanks!
-Will

[Gach]

This may be a stupid question, but shouldn't this topic be in the race section, instead of the street car section, not that it really matters. but won't street guys get confuse, and think they'll have to use torque plate's on their street motor's, I thought only all out race motors use torque plates.

Will, if there's one think I've learned a long time ago, is Never! Never! trust a machine shops work, always check, but then again you'd need about 2500.00 worth of tools, to check everything right.

My opinion on torque plates, Never leave home with out one, if you want good ring steal, which makes hp. Now is it worth it on a daily driver.....NOPE...or a once in a while trip to the strip....NOPE.... some guys crack me up

[Will]

Okay, what about the honing finish for moly rings? Any suggestions?

It's obvious I'm going to want torque plates done. This isn't a daily driver, but it's not an occasional strip machine either. I just want to build the best engine I can. It really doesn't cost much more to have it done with torque plates than without, and if there's a benefit of as much as 10 or more horsepower then it sounds like it's worth it to me.

Thanks,
-Will

[Bracket Racer]

I think the torque plate question has obviously been answered. If nothing else buy one of your own and offer to let your local Pontiac friends use it for a fee. You should be able to get one for under $200.00. Try BHJ. As for the cylinder wall finish, pay heed to what C&A or Total Seal reccomends. Their engineers test this stuff thoroughly and wouldn't steer you wrong. The machinist needs good quality stones, experience and obviously good machine equipment or else all bets are off on getting what you want.