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#221
08-28-2023, 10:12 AM
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some pictures are kind of fuzzy. But looks like they are all the same. Backwards. I have put together piston reversed for years on different engines, including Pontiacs, I could never really tell it made much difference anyplace. That includes noise, oil usage, or power. I know of a 340 Mopar that someone took the engine apart, pulled rods and pistons out, took the free floating pins out of the factory pistons, flipped the pistons around so the offset was backwards from stock, reinstall the pistons in the same holes, with the same rings, on the same tune, and pickup up 2 tenths in the 1/4 mile. A 340 is not a 428, a 428 is not a SBC 400. There is a reason that became a well known speed trick, on some rare occasions it seemed to make a difference. Mike there can be some valve terrain noise that come from running Rhoad's lifters. Make sure your ok with that before you go that direction. If your after an extremely quiet running engine, they probably are not for you. Last edited by Jay S; 08-28-2023 at 10:26 AM. |
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#222
08-28-2023, 12:01 PM
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I was told about the Rhoads noise and I wonder if losing one noise to solve an existing noise is what is about to happen here. If you have read through this entire Thread, you will understand what I am talking about. They are all installed backwards, look at the notch, except the # 2 Piston is in the factory way, I can't reason why they would do that. I do wonder if they Blue printed and balanced this motor and then found it necessary to keep the #2 Piston in for weight reasons? My father raced Gymkhanas in the 60's and he blueprinted/balanced his corvettes 427 ci Engines for the rules allowed it. So, I figure that may have been done to this Engine. The forum is aware that this Engine has Build codes added to the Block after it came out of the factory, when they added their YK and EUN #'s to the front side of the P.S. block. The #'s added to my block by a builder in 1968 are upside down and on top, along the side also. The 1967 428 ci motor did not come with a partial vin., in that year, therefore the Engine may have been sold to a racer over the counter. Where he had a company mechanic add the Tri-power Cam, Intake and Carbs. in 1968. The story is a moon shiner driving this Engine, drove his truck over a mountain in the Carolina's, on a shine run, then the Engine was retrieved and sold to the man I bought this second-hand project from, who passed away. So, I can't ask him any more about this subject. The more I get into this Engine the more race ready it becomes. I wonder if it was on a drag track or round robin ovels? With the Heads removed we note that no Exhaust Valves have new hardened seats except for the two we are adding now. Also, you can read the #'s on the Block that depict what Piston the factory installed into each cylinder, that shows that the Block is not decked yet, original piece here! This is a photo of the mod. that we recently invented/added to our air cleaner's filters, that add air from the top and lean out the Carbs. a little more to add Volumetric Efficiency to our vehicles tune-up! Drill concentric holes and add 2 layers of metal screen diagonally behind the covers, glued on the perimeter, do you think it will work? Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 08-28-2023 at 12:35 PM. |
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#223
08-28-2023, 12:28 PM
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Rhoads lifters wont solve the noise you think was caused by adding 4" dryer duct to the exhaust pipes... whatever caused that noise, it was completely unrelated to the lifters.
The #2 piston being installed in a different direction was not because of weight/balancing... it was most likely not done on purpose or for a "racing" reason, chances are whoever installed them just overlooked it. There is no reason or benefit to install 1 piston opposite of the others. |
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#224
08-28-2023, 01:17 PM
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What do you think about the 87 actual degrees of overlap in the "041" grind vs. the former cam specs overlap only being 60 degrees? Added to any other factors that I have described in this thread, what made the strange noise? I also found two Exhaust Valves sunk into the Heads that are getting new Hardened Exhaust Seats and all the Valve guides had to be remanufactured, using a tool that leaves oil collection/grabber grooves in the Heads valve guide area. The Head mechanic is milling down the Intake Valve seal Boss area, just like the exhaust seals were already milled for the blue double band valve seals, instead of using the former valve umbrella seals. By the way the umbrella seals were lifted off the boss seats and were moving with the valve stem up and down, adding to air or exhaust loss or reverb, could that have contributed to the noise problem, now that we observed this anomaly? I may be grasping for straws but I don't want to get this motor done and still have some unknown noise show its teeth. The Head mechanic is not using umbrella seals, this time, on the eight Intake Valves lower boss seals area, instead he is milling the lower boss to fit a blue seal, with two metal bands, that will hold all 16 valve guide seals over the boss, never lifting off, ever. The man is meticulous. Also, I asked why he is not using valve guide inserts made of steel or copper or brass and he showed me the tool to bore in different size oil circular rings, for lack of better terms, into the existing valve guide's inner wall. He claims his way is the better way, can anyone dispute or elaborate on that please? |
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#225
08-28-2023, 02:46 PM
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It was a good catch by Kenneth to see it had one piston turned opposite the others. Pretty obvious mistake made by someone. Hopefully you get all the issues with the engine sorted out. That probably wasn’t not causing any problems as long as the connecting rod was oriented right, but it needs to be fixed while you have it apart. Make them all the same, either stock, or reversed.
Having the pistons reverse hung puts less force on the trust wall of the cylinder and piston skirt. It is really not much of a secret speed modification, and most of the time does not do anything. Put all the pistons back stock, or leave them backwards, but get them all the same. Sounds like the machinist is Knurling the guides. It tightens the guide up. It is not close to as good as bronze guides, but is cheap to do when the guides are a little loose. Changing to Rhoad’s lifter would mean breaking in another set of lifter on already used cam, which seems unnecessary since you have already run it. You probably wouldn’t like the noise Rhaod’s lifters make anyway. Advance the cam to 109, fix the other engine issues and get it back together. The cams overlap creating a ghosts noise is very very unlikely. |
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#226
08-28-2023, 03:51 PM
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I got nothin on the overlap difference of the cams, the cam expert members have commented on that, I would listen to what they are saying & get the cam set right with the degree wheel & move on. Got nothin on the noise issue either, but I said earlier on in this thread the noise wasnt caused by 4" dryer duct on the exhaust, there is not enough back pressure to cause anything you are grasping at like valve seals or exhaust seat issues. Whatever the cause, the reman'd heads will address everything related to "reverb" since you will have fresh heads & no holes in your crossover block off. Fix #2 piston or leave them all as is if you dont want to touch the bottom end & keep your fingers crossed, or put the pistons back to stock positions & check the rod orientation & bearings. Last edited by 78w72; 08-28-2023 at 04:40 PM. |
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#227
08-28-2023, 11:13 PM
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Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 08-28-2023 at 11:20 PM. |
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#228
08-29-2023, 03:32 AM
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Did you drill holes in the air cleaner lids? Not only will that do NOTHING to improve power anyplace it allows butt-loads of unfiltered air into the engine and will destroy it.
Knurling valves guides is a cheap and poor way to tighten up clearances. It was a "quick-fix" decades ago but we all found out that displacing metal and leaving a spiral groove behind reduced surface area and the fix is short lived. I tried that repair WAY back when I first got into the hobby and it wasn't a few thousand miles before they guides were worn out and the heads had to come back off for full length hardened iron replacement guides. Over the years bronze guides have become very popular and a good repair provided you use top quality material. The debate has raged on for decades about what to use and no one can agree on any of it. There are many types of bronze guides and folks that chose one type vs another pretty much stand behind their choice when those topics come up for discussion. At this point in time and on this thread pretty much wasting space to cover the options and benefits of each type, then you have to throw the valve material into the equation, etc. In any case I NEVER knurl valve guides or recommend it. It's just not a good long term repair and more of a cheap "crutch" fix offered by shops to save the customer some money and get them on down the road for a bit....IMHO As far as the 041 cam and duration, you have to look at how they measured the duration, here are the specs right from the Melling catalog: SPC-8 INT. 3 BTC 48ABC 231 32 BTC 92 ABC 304 .313 .469 112 HYD EXH. 54 BBC 6 ATC 240 84 BBC 51 ATC 315 .313 .469 115 HYD The specs for all the Melling Pontiac cams can be found here: https://www.melling.com/wp-content/u...ck-294-304.pdf
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
| The Following User Says Thank You to Cliff R For This Useful Post: | ||
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#229
08-29-2023, 09:19 AM
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Maybe I didn't read it correctly but degreeing the camshaft is much more involved than just putting the wheel on and rotating the engine back and forth. I didn't see any mention of a dial indicator on the #1 intake lobe of the camshaft to verify ICL.
Also agree with Cliff. Knurling valve guides is an old cheap repair that shops would do decades ago to tighten up the guide to valve clearance. It's a short lived repair. They used to do the same thing with piston skirts to take up excess clearance from worn and out of round cylinder bores so people didn't have to pay for overboring and new pistons, another very short lived repair. Eventually the engine goes back to an oil sucking machine. Having the bosses machined for positive seals though is always a plus and something I have done on every head these days. Umbrella seals are useless. Last edited by Formulajones; 08-29-2023 at 10:00 AM. |
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#230
08-29-2023, 12:06 PM
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#231
08-29-2023, 01:47 PM
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I did it once WAY back right out of High School, when I had to fart in my pocket to have a cent.
The heads were "906" castings for my 1979 Roadrunners 440 engine. With it's 3.90 rear gears the "fix" was very short lived. Worked fine at first, but one summer of street driving and weekly trips to our local drag strip and they were loose again. I wouldn't use or recommend that type of repair to anyone.....FWIW....
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#232
08-29-2023, 06:02 PM
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I think he put screens in after he drilled them and tried to make them a poor man’s velocity stack. But without back to back testing you may have just destroyed airflow . By making it turbulent. Every modification needs testing to prove or disprove its usefulness . The old school stock eliminator guys had crazy tricks but they were well tested.
Like they would loosen the front bolts on a carb just enough so when it went to full throttle the carb would rock back causing a vacuum leak but they had already calculated how much they had to jet it up for this, that’s why early stock class cars were always revving in the staging lanes . It was because they were pig rich all the time . Some guys even hid vacuum fittings and put valves on them so they could tube this set up. This was to effectively make the carb have more CFM I remember when guys would sandwich screens in under carb spacers to straighten out the airflow and of course there were the turtles in the bottom of the intakes. Sometimes to direct airflow sometimes to change volume . These were tricks the guys in NY NJ used a lot . Simple little things like turning the nuts up on firebird front shocks so there was some unopened travel. A lot of it was stuff you made back the. Or did to cars yourself. But much of it worked well Back to the drilled tops, it’s funny how air flow works sometimes. Like w houses if you have vents in your gable ends you never want a ridge vent in your roof . You can have one or the other but never both. Neither will work at all if you have. Both and you’ll get mold in your attic. Meanwhile your sitting there thinking well I doubled the air flow why do I still get even more mold .
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Happiness is just a turbocharger away! 960 HP @ 11 psi, 9.70 at 146. Iron heads, iron stock 2 bolt block , stock crank, 9 years haven't even changed a spark plug! selling turbos and turbo related parts since 2005! Last edited by turbo69bird; 08-29-2023 at 06:09 PM. |
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#233
08-29-2023, 06:24 PM
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In fact I remember once upon a time it being the trick set up to run 2 I table gaskets w screen sandwiched between them. Some had them Jim Taylor or bill cerelli or one of those guys.
I used to love to hang out jim Taylor at the track what a good guy and wealth of knowledge. . I’d read everything I could get my hands on about Smokey yunick (my uncle knew him) and jungle Jim’s mods to his engines . Those were the days IMO A funny it’s bit about jungle . It was always to be pronounced LIBERMAN not leeberman! He hated when people said leeberman �� a fact maybe lost to history .
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Happiness is just a turbocharger away! 960 HP @ 11 psi, 9.70 at 146. Iron heads, iron stock 2 bolt block , stock crank, 9 years haven't even changed a spark plug! selling turbos and turbo related parts since 2005! |
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#234
08-30-2023, 02:47 AM
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Because, a PY forum member mentioned in the past, that the large air filter used over the Tri-power Carbs. is better than 3 small filters. Plus, since then the aftermarket came out with a large red air filter, that is fitted with a filter lid made of the same material. I deduced that they being market tested, could not harm me drilling my tops, while doubling up on the screens, under the lids. First, I doubled up in height on rear and center carbs., using additional small diameter filters, bought over the counter, that add air volume and fit under my hood scoop. The front Carb. uses a taller filter with less diameter, because the scoop should have been moved forward, this will be repaired during the next paint job, when she turns into the Black Bandit look. No debris will enter the Carbs. and I can't just look at the inside of the Exhaust pipe to see gray, because of the lack of led in the fuel today, what tells me it helps is that the fumes exiting the Exhaust pipes are less eye stinging.
It is hard for me to tell the Head mechanic to sleeve the Valve guides, after I originally told him to fix only what needs to be repaired and to use factory methods to preserve originality. If I knew now what I should have looked up, I too would ask for the Brass Guides. "Do you think that the method currently used on the valve guides repair, will last in a street driven application?" Remember you were hard on your race vehicles, I am taking it easy and stomping on the peddle very little for a short duration, that's it. My tires are only rated for 80 mph, above that and I risk having to replace them, as I did once a year, over the first four years of testing and tuning up to 130 mph. You said: "In fact, I remember once upon a time, it being the trick set up, to run 2 I table gaskets w/screen sandwiched between them." Mikes reply: Could you elaborate on this for the rest of us, I was not there! You said: " Some guys even hid vacuum fittings and put valves on them so they could tube this set up. This was to effectively make the carb have more CFM". Mikes reply: I saw an innovative race trick online, stored at a museum for prosperity, under the intake manifold someone had found an odd item, a racer inserted a tube through the intake manifold as to look like a vacuum tube "not" plugged off. They said that the item acted like an additional carb, hidden beneath the Intake Manifold. It is only cheating if you get caught. You said: " I remember when guys would sandwich screens in under carb. spacers to straighten out the airflow and of course there were the turtles in the bottom of the intakes. Sometimes to direct airflow sometimes to change volume." Mikes reply: I have seen the aftermarket Turtle you speak of, however the sandwich screens under the carb. eludes me, please elaborate on that. I picture a screen under the carb using additional gaskets, like I use on my Tri-powers on my 1/2" raised spacers that contain block off plates under each of the 3-float bowls, but your screen idea goes over my head and why the screens are necessary is questionable. Perhaps you can detail this for me and others reading this, Thanks, Mike. Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 08-30-2023 at 03:33 AM. |
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#235
08-30-2023, 04:15 AM
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How you use the vehicle has NOTHING to do with wearing out knurled valve guides. Knurling is a poor practice and half ars repair for worn guides, ALWAYS has been and it AMAZES me anyone still offers that service.
Keep this in mind, your valves are opening and closing many times a second no matter how fast you are driving. I didn't do the math but in 10 miles of "normal" driving with a few full throttle blasts the valves have probably cycled up and down at least 10,000 times...YIKES! Now imagine knurling a worn valve guide You run a tool thru iron material to displace it, then punch back thru to re-size, and leave less surface area for support and wear, and guess what? They will wear out much quicker. My personal experience with that sort of thing has not been good. I've torn down many engines in well over 40 years of rebuilding them, even the first 400 that showed up in my Ventura when purchased in the mid-1980's had a "cheap" valve job done on it. The machine shop pulled the usual dumb trick or refacing the ends of the valves and going too deep and well past the hardened material and they were ALL "mushroomed" out and pitting away to nothing. The knurled valve guides were loose enough to allow tons of oil past them and pounding out the valve seats things were flopping around in there so much. The engine was supposed to have been recently "rebuilt", but since the owner chose the "budget" route it was very short lived.....FWIW.......
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
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#236
08-30-2023, 07:41 AM
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If the knurling was done on a guide that was still with in specs, not what you would classify as loose or shot, just needs tightening up some, that is quite a bit different than knurling something that is loose and shot. Knurling the one than is still pretty tight will last longer than if you just left it and ran it. Loose and shot always needs liners. I have had some that only received knurling on a couple valves that were slightly lose, still with in specs. Those all went more than 100K miles, and out lasted the vehicle in most cases. Those were stock engines though.
You kind of have to go with your machinist’s opinion and judgement. I know of one local machinist that the heads get liners no matter what you bring in, even new heads that need nothing. Lol….There are fewer and fewer machinist shops around to do the work. If your not careful you”ll end up on some 6 month or year waiting list. Last edited by Jay S; 08-30-2023 at 08:12 AM. |
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#237
08-30-2023, 07:59 AM
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I also want to know whether or not the Pontiac Factory cut the valve seat Boss on the Exhaust Valves, intending using the positive seals, with the two metal straps or was that done after the Engine left the foundry using their meticulous machining process? The reason I ask is to ascertain whether or not the Heads were modified before or after leaving the Factory. Why does the factory use the Umbrella seals? They machined the Heads better from the factory compared to other manufactures, or so I read.
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#238
08-30-2023, 08:13 AM
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#239
08-30-2023, 08:25 AM
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I am letting the Head builder take his time on these Heads, I even paid him in advance, the fact that he is cutting all 8 Intake Bosses as a matter of his own practice procedure, says he is meticulous, perhaps he knows which process to use and when?
For the record, this motor never smoked, however I had in my spare parts, within the gasket set, were the positive and Umbrella seals, thus I deduced that the former owner never addressed the Heads, so I installed them where they could do some good. This 1967 428 ci HO Engine is stock and possibly Blue printed and balanced to spec. for the very reason that the lower end has been tampered with. Who goes into the lower Crank and pistons and race tricks the pistons if not there making the best of racing ability to stay within scca rules for example only, as I stated before, my own father sent his motors out to be Blueprinted and Balanced for racing in Gymkhana's on Long Island N.Y. @ Mitchel field, former air force base, before the Nassa Coliseum was built. Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 08-30-2023 at 09:08 AM. |
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#240
08-30-2023, 11:41 AM
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1. Pontiac never cut just the exhaust valve guides from factory, IF they cut it was the intake valve guides OR both intake and exhaust.
I have had #670 heads from a 428 that none of the guides were cut and #670 heads from 400 engines were the intake valvguides were cut for positive seals. There is absolutely NO point just cutting the exhaust valve guides only (not even a "race"-engine would benefit from this). Are you sure you´re looking at the exhaust valve guides? 2. NO Pontiac heads ever uses "umbrella" seals from factory, like f.e. Chevy engines did. Pontiac used "positive" seals on the intake valve guides for the 1967 and later "high performance" 4-barrel engines. 3. ALL, except the RamAir, engines also uses oil shields and O-rings in the retainers. |
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