[GoatZillaRacing]

Originally Posted by J.C.you

In the circle track world where a iron head is required there could be a market, otherwise no.

That's actually a great market! Many moons ago I built a set of heads and cam combo for a guy running a 350 Pontiac in a 68 GTO and he was killing them for a couple years. The organization trying to keep the playing field level made a "corporate" 350 the only engine they could run.

[GoatZillaRacing]

How about this: We create these in IRON and call them "Street Sleeper" heads.

I said earlier that they would flow better than any Pontiac factory head except the Ram Air V but according to the tests Pete McCarthy/HPP did, even the RAV flowed only 253 CFM @.800 lift.

Street Sleeper heads would look totally stock but they'd totally ROCK!

[t money]

If you want to spend your retirement money on a head for street and strip or a race heads flowing 350 cfm or more. You will sell 50 heads in 5-10 years. Most people at the level are not willing to sell there 4,000 dollar plus setup for 1/2 there investment only to buy a new 4,000 dollar setup. That’s already a crowed market. I’m not sure how a cast head would do but I hear it all the time do something that nobody else is doing. Pontiac race / street and strip is 25% of the market again many options The rest a street/ classic the big market What ever you do I’m pulling for you.

[RocktimusPryme]

I think I would be interested in them if they were sorta in the mold of a vortec head from the small block world.

A little better design than an older gen 1 SBC Head, flows as good or better than the rest. Can be had bolt on ready for under $1000 all day.

I was originally looking at putting iron heads on my motor. But looking at the cost of heavy porting and all from SD you would still be into them for like 15-1700 bucks. I just paid the extra tax and went aluminum.

If however I could have bolted on a nice set of iron heads with maybe a heart shaped chamber for like 800-1200? I might have gone that route and saved $1000.

I think there is a market at that price, but I don’t think you could make money therr

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

The reason I would want small chambers is that you can always use a dish for larger engines but those of us that love the Pontiac 350 can't get "less" volume like larger engines can. A .030" over 350 with 8cc flat tops at zero deck and a 65cc chamber is only 9.95:1 scr ! If you want a race engine at say 12:1scr you would have to start decking the heads! So I say 65cc chambers should be the base line.

So you could have say three chamber sizes that would allow sufficient compression for engines in the stock sizes for racing but if the user wants to run pump gas they can use dished pistons.

To boil it down, I am saying don't forget the 350 and 400 guys when you cast/machine chambers! Not everybody wants to run a 455+ cubic inches!

I will end with this; the fact that you are building an iron head with modern chambers is Abso-freaking-lutely beautiful! I will buy a set!

[tom s]

As I said in the other thread,all the V hands I had floed bone stock were in the 315-317 range at 28in at 600.Tom

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by dmac

Such heads would have to be ~10% cheaper than aluminum to make up for the weight savings. A newly designed iron head that could be easily milled on both intake and chamber sides for different chamber sizes with a modern chamber design and maybe a better sealing valve cover would be worth owning. There is a need for heads with chamber sizes from about 70cc to 110cc or more.

Damn. Pontiac machined the valve cover surface flat. What do you want? A guarantee not to leak? Have you seen the rounded surface on other brands?

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

$1000....that is an impossible #.
With your cores.... 18+ years ago, a set of cast heads that got the works.
-Bake shot and shake
-16 full manganese bronze guides cut for modern seals
-8 ex seats,
-good VJ,
-tap for screw in studs a/n
-16 quality valves, springs and studs, retainers,
-keepers and seals.
Cost usually ~$1000-$1300+. with misc helicoils and/or broken bolt removals

I imagine that # has gone up quite a bit

Bring a quality piece to market with good parts, mod chambers and excellent flow #'s....that are stock appearing.
There will be plenty of buyers.

What do you project the retail cost to be?

I see no market in the circle track world today. I've only seen one Pontiac engine in 30 years of dirt track racing, and that is a vintage dirt modified I see once a year.
Budget racing has gone the way of the SBC GM 602 or 604 .The 400 horse 604 is ~6k out of the box and 8k finely but legally blueprinted.

[steve25]

To make the most of sales potential I would think that you would need two different basic heads.

#1) being a head that externally looks like 1965/ 66 389/421 head with screw in rocker studs and guides plates that flows 245 Intake cfm and 185 Exh out of the box.

#2) a later D port based head with the needed center Exh port section like that of the 5C and 6X series of heads so that Exh flow numbers well over 215 cfm could be had thru porting .
This head could start out at a Intake flow of 260 to 270@28" h2o.

Getting into the hole debate of casting a late style head with that long air injection feed passage or not will be a tuff call, as having that or not could kill off some possible sales!

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

IF you wanted or needed iron heads - look at the cost of porting to 270 cfm- 1800 + your heads + freight both ways.

I would think if you can get an as cast 260cfm iron head for around 2000, that would sell. It must have a modern combustion chamber.

This, and I would also add if they were made to look factory including some of the harder to find casting numbers, including the round ports. It would be killer to have a stock looking iron round port 614 (or..??) with modern chambers. I think there would be a small market for that. I'd buy a set. The money they get for original castings now is crazy considering they need $1,000 worth of machine work to make them usable. Which is why I go the new aluminum route these days.

There was mention here somewhere at one time an aluminum round port version was being considered with factory cast numbers and made to look like a stock iron head. It sparked some interest, including myself, but never heard another thing about it.

[Squidward]

I care little for the aesthetics. Casting numbers are for resto guys who also care about date codes. I don't see any real need for aftermarket heads looking like early heads - too small a market for business practicality. I see aftermarket iron heads as a viable alternative with just a few key points:

• Can accept the very common 70's accessory brackets (alternator). You know, that alternator pivot bolt with the spacer?
• Comes in a few basic chamber volumes, maybe 70/85/100, to pretty much cover CR's for 350-455.
• Heartburn chamber
• Threaded water crossover holes for screw in heater fittings.

Just the basics, no weird tall port stuff, or crazy options. Just good quality KISS stuff. Most street guys would be easily satisfied with a head that flowed 220-230 off the shelf. Those that wouldn't be happy are probably driving a race car, and just haven't come to terms with it yet.

[Formulajones]

Just because us restoration guys want to look stock, doesn't mean we want to go slow

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

get an as cast 260cfm iron head

I'd say as cast 290 CFM minimum, very few build 350s.
A proper 400 cube engine turning 5600 RPM plus would love a well designed 290. The 428 and 455 will want more.

[Bruce Meyer]

Here is my 2 cents. I would pattern them off a RA4 head. Casting numbers and all. That way you will get some resto guys looking for heads that don't want to pay 5K. Internally do your magic. Forget cast iron D ports. Ive got a shed full of them. They don't bring any money. There are too many out there.

[azbirds]

A round port in iron would have me in line for 2 sets. My 72 HO needs some modern chambers and some more compression. Thought about aluminum but I have 3 engines running with them already. I want it stock looking while being able to take care of business, I drive my cars daily and hard. I've thought about using 350 blocks lately because it's getting hard to find 400 blocks and I have a number of 350's. Call me weird, but I have a couple 326's that would benefit from good chambers and more flow.

[azbirds]

Right on the money Bruce!!!

[Formulajones]

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by GoatZillaRacing

How about this: We create these in IRON and call them "Street Sleeper" heads.

I said earlier that they would flow better than any Pontiac factory head except the Ram Air V but according to the tests Pete McCarthy/HPP did, even the RAV flowed only 253 CFM @.800 lift.

Street Sleeper heads would look totally stock but they'd totally ROCK!

Pete's 253 cfm at .800' Lift was based on a test pressure of 12" of water, sir, not 25" or 28" of water test pressure.

I am very familiar with "Jerry's Bench" where Pete did his flow bench testing.
I sent Jerry some higher capacity Super Flow type flow bench motors after Pete's
testing to help him get the flow numbers higher (more like a Super Flow number).

A honest 300 cfm at 25" test pressure (SF Testing Point) would make a LOT of power both NA and Boosted.

Tom V.

[Formulas]

I agree there is alot of so so heads out there.. you have to fill a gap that makes people giddy to open wallet... i passed up so many blocks in the boneyards because i didnt always have a truck or desire but heads were so much easier to bag and throw in the trunk... i expect the same for alot of people

Ive personally always wanted a set of 197's that would drop on a flat top 455 and give upper 9 compression but they dont exist unless i buy a set for 4k then cut the hell out of them then there goes their value

So my stab at it would be a 90cc fast burn chamber RAIV ports whatever flow is easy to cast that is set up to run near .600 lift cam

[GoatZillaRacing]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Pete's 253 cfm at .800' Lift was based on a test pressure of 12" of water, sir, not 25" or 28" of water test pressure.

I am very familiar with "Jerry's Bench" where Pete did his flow bench testing.
I sent Jerry some higher capacity Super Flow type flow bench motors after Pete's
testing to help him get the flow numbers higher (more like a Super Flow number).

A honest 300 cfm at 25" test pressure (SF Testing Point) would make a LOT of power both NA and Boosted.

Tom V.

As I said I provided Jerry/Pete with RAII & RAIV heads and various d-ports for that test too but it was 1991 and feels like forever ago!

These new cast iron heads may not beat the "unobtainium RAVs" but they'll certainly fill a need for many performance rebuilds and should be very popular with the boosted crowd.