[ml3126]

I know that they are reliable but I was thrown for a loop when I received my package today. Thought my 1970 GTO was a cardinal red 400 auto. PHS says it is a Grenada gold ram air 3, 4 speed.

Car does not have ram air intake or components. It has proper non ram air hood inlets and it has proper auto shifter with center console. Engine is not original it has a 455 with dual snorkel air cleaner. Also car is at painters so I don't have access to it now.

Do you think it's common for someone to install proper non ram air components on a ram air car? Thought I would ask as I was surprised by PHS info.

[The Boss]

What does your cowl tag say?

[ml3126]

Good question. Car is in paint shop. Just wondering if anybody else had similar issue. Thanks.

[Jason67]

Never heard of an issue with PHS like this, its always been the standard for Identifying Pontiacs. Did you use the VIN on the dash or the VIN on the door sticker? Do they match? Make sure the PHS matches the VIN exactly and not one number/letter off. Does the VIN on the dash match the frame VIN?

[The Boss]

There have been times where an option has not shown up but not color, trans & engine.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

A lot of cars got robbed of parts in the 70's and 80's
then 15-20 years later get resurrected with whatever can be sourced the easiest.

Already mentioned, but make sure the VIN on PHS is exactly the same as car.
ESPECIALLY the Plant Code after 242370x (A, B, G, P etc ....)

[1969GTO]

thought my 69 GTO was red, PHS said Silver [forgot color name], missing 8 track,also didn't realize the pass seat reclines.
The car is 45 years old...stuff happens.

[Ron Landis]

Originally Posted by The Boss

There have been times where an option has not shown up but not color, trans & engine.

there IS! My '69 2 bbl GTO ragtop was incorrect...as the PHS showed the car to be a YS car. I bought it from an elderly gentleman who bought it new for his daughter. It came with the correct XX block and correct VIN. However...PHS showed it to be a YS car. Also was set up for Hide-Aways with the hole for the vacuum hose harness drilled in the firewall but it had exposed headlights. Came with blackwall tires and Mattison said that NEVER happened...either W/W or redlines. Old man took delivery and swore that's how she came...poverty caps and all. Air car without tinted glass...which is very unusual. I assumed that the car was headed down the line when the order came in so they switched a few things to sell the car. Two sources listing production numbers do not agree. One states 215...one states 216. Also assuming one states PHS numbers and the other somehow states actual cars produced. Anyone's guess...but I can assure you the PHS was in error. I was encouraged to keep quiet about this by a person who dealt almost exclusively in rare, high- dollar Pontiacs and he claimed his livelihood depended on PHS to verify and to discredit it would be detrimental to the hobby. Anyway...there's my input...for what it's worth.

[marxjunk]

i have heard of a mistake or two..its all on micro fische etc..the best person to ask is Mattison.

hes easy to talk to...just cll and tell him how conflicted the two are, after you get the cowl tag info...look and see if it was 4 speed and the stuff was changed..


then check to make sure the VIN hasnt been monkeyed with, then call Jim..he will tell you if theres a mistake or not

i've bought cars on the road and PHS them over the phone and got call backs in less than an hr..so hes a car guy...

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Ron,

69 Invoice (along with JM) has no way of deducing whether a car was YS ~or~ the No-cost/No-credit 2bbl Economy engine. There would be no indication of an engine in either respect on the Invoice for YS or an Economy 2bbl. (67 and 68 BHC would indicate this however)
When you state that PHS showed the car to be a YS car - surely you do not mean the Invoice declared it YS.
Have never seen that before.
YS was a human error assumption due to circumstances.

8.25x14 Blackwalls were Standard on V8 Tempest / Lemans
With the economy engine selection - perhaps - that was also an automatic downgrade on the tires to the Tempest/Lemans level.
The buildsheet only knows for sure - beyond the man who bought it new.
Don't think i have a buildsheet for a 2bbl GTO , but will look.

JM might have been in error - not the Invoice.
In this scenario, it probably would have gotten past anyone pulling the invoice without knowing the car.
Similar to a 1970 455HO Judge
Gary Caves convertible Invoice doesn't say anything about it being 455HO - JM wouldn't know either way and would likely assume it was a YZ 400 car. The 455HO was a No-cost / No-credit selection on 1970 Judges.
Just like the 2bbl Economy engine was on 69 GTO.

Jim was taking those things "for granted" if he wrote or told you those things.
Most folks just get an invoice copy without explanation.

The margin of error on the invoices is less than 0.1 percent at most.
Human error can be much much higher.

There will be a simple explanation for this car once ml3126 gets his stuff together.

If he sent the correct VIN to PHS , and they sent the correct VIN data - his car will have been Gold and have a hole in firewall for R/A cable and another hole for the clutch rod.
And his tranny tunnel will have some evidence - if the floors were not replaced.

No disrespect intended towards anyone in any capacity.

[YNOBIL]

Originally Posted by Ron Landis

there IS! My '69 2 bbl GTO ragtop was incorrect...as the PHS showed the car to be a YS car. I bought it from an elderly gentleman who bought it new for his daughter. It came with the correct XX block and correct VIN. However...PHS showed it to be a YS car. Also was set up for Hide-Aways with the hole for the vacuum hose harness drilled in the firewall but it had exposed headlights. Came with blackwall tires and Mattison said that NEVER happened...either W/W or redlines. Old man took delivery and swore that's how she came...poverty caps and all. Air car without tinted glass...which is very unusual. I assumed that the car was headed down the line when the order came in so they switched a few things to sell the car. Two sources listing production numbers do not agree. One states 215...one states 216. Also assuming one states PHS numbers and the other somehow states actual cars produced. Anyone's guess...but I can assure you the PHS was in error. I was encouraged to keep quiet about this by a person who dealt almost exclusively in rare, high- dollar Pontiacs and he claimed his livelihood depended on PHS to verify and to discredit it would be detrimental to the hobby. Anyway...there's my input...for what it's worth.

Keep in mind "PHS" deals with the factory invoice and I believe that to be the Gospel. My friend Bob special ordered the near twin to my '72 GTO but he didn't know that in '72 white letter tires became an option. When the car arrived with black walls and Bob protested. The dealer (Community Pontiac) just swapped tires and rims with a '71 GTO they had on the lot. So your "old man" may have taken delivery with black walls but who's to say the dealer didn't do a swap before he made the purchase.

[ml3126]

Thanks for all the good info. As soon as it comes back I will check the cowl tag and holes for clutch etc.

[trishieldchief]

Yes PHS can be incorrect.
You have to understand that a human had to manually enter option code information associated with that VIN.
The phone rings or person gets distracted while entering data and mistakes were made.

I once had a 1972 GTO 455 HO 4 speed car.
True HO with X in VIN however HO engine option was no where to be found on PHS.
The Buyer got an HO equipped car for base priced 400 GTO.

[Keith Seymore]

Also make sure the plant code in the VIN is correct.

On one occasion I asked for 237365P123456

What I received was 237365Z123456

Obviously they are two totally different cars. Nothing made sense.

Took me a year to notice the discrepancy. Mentioned it to JM and he made it right with no drama.

When I got the correct PHS suddenly everything made sense.

K

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by trishieldchief

I once had a 1972 GTO 455 HO 4 speed car.
True HO with X in VIN however HO engine option was no where to be found on PHS.
The Buyer got an HO equipped car for base priced 400 GTO.

Pat Brown had a Lucy Blue 1972 455HO 4spd GTO with X in VIN and it didn't list the engine option on Invoice. That has been the only one i had ever heard of ... so far.
Was yours the same Lucy Blue car - sold new in Columbus Ohio ?

The dealer apparently didn't get charged , but the buyer probably did

[north]

I would do as many have already mentioned;

Make 100% sure the VIN on your car matches the VIN of the PHS invoice (some PHS invoices are hard to read, especially the plant code).

Compare the codes on the trim tag for exterior and interior colors.

Inspect the VIN and trim tags for any signs of tampering.

Look for signs of factory paint or overspray in areas like door and trunk hinge areas, the underside of the drip molding area etc.

See if floor was originally cut for the 4speed shifter or if floors were replaced.

Look if holes for the Ram Air bracket or the the hole in the firewall for the control cable are present or signs of them being filled in.

Assuming that the VIN's are the same then perhaps the car was stolen at some point and the tags were switched from a scrapped car.

You could also ask PHS to look at a few other invoices that were one or two numbers above or below yours in case they got out of sync.

The reason I would not be inclined to think the invoice is wrong is that even if they made a mistake that was substantial the dealer paying the invoice would catch it and it would be corrected.

[trishieldchief]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Pat Brown had a Lucy Blue 1972 455HO 4spd GTO with X in VIN and it didn't list the engine option on Invoice. That has been the only one i had ever heard of ... so far.
Was yours the same Lucy Blue car - sold new in Columbus Ohio ?

The dealer apparently didn't get charged , but the buyer probably did

Baron
I will dig file out on that car and post detail
Rich

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Thanks Rich, that would be Wild if there are 2 different ones with the same omission.
This is some stuff on the Blue 72

[MCronkGTO]

Recently sent in request for my 69 Lemans optioned as a 2bbl 350 with A/C. There were 2 block codes for the 2bbl 350 automatic cars both had the UPC L30. They identified the wrong engine (two letter block code YU). However the PHS shows the 350 2bbl engine code of 343 which has the corresponding block code of XS (which is what the engine in the car has) and is also listed as an available 350 2bbl engine. Upon research of original sales order forms the 343 code (block code XS) is for the 350 2bbl engine car optioned with A/C. Furthermore the VIN on the block matches the VIN on the car. I don't think anyone "faked" this as it is only a Lemans. As someone mentioned humans make mistakes. Whether it be on the original entry or trying to read poorly made microfiche from 40 plus years ago.

I sent several emails to them explaining the mistake and never received a reply. Disappointed but not "freaking out" because it is only a Lemans. On the other hand if it were a very rare and valuable car and they got the engine code wrong I would be very upset.

Bottom line is the PHS has the correct engine designation they just "circled and highlighted" the wrong engine code on the engine sheet.

MarkC

[64CatalinaVentura]

PHS missed the chrome guard around the fuel filler door and misspelled the name of the town where the dealer was by one letter. Otherwise mine was fine.