[bulletpruf]

So, I'm thinking about buying a non-running D7D 17A project; should be about 1959 vintage. It's complete, said to have been running (but not running well) about 10 years ago. Owner thinks it's was having fuel issues.

It has a hydraulic blade, electric start, Hyster D7D winch. Engine is a 4 cylinder turbo, but based on the block casting, it appears to be a later D7E engine.

This would be my first piece of heavy equipment. I've been wrenching on muscle cars and trucks on and off for decades. Also have some diesel experience - Ford 7.3 IDI and PS and a pair of Detroit diesels in a boat decades ago. Now that I'm retired from the Army, I have more time to take on something challenging like this. FYI - I certainly realize that it would make more sense to buy something in better condition, but I'm not necessarily after the smartest course of action.

Anyway, back to the D7. I haven't seen it in person yet; it's 1.5 hours away from me. Going tomorrow to check it out in person. Before I buy it, I'd like to get it running, if at all possible.

Owner said he has an old set of batteries from a D4; believe the D7 should be 24V.

And this is where I could use some help. I'm familiar with the process of starting a car or truck that hasn't been running in years, but a 64 year old D7 is another situation altogether. Anyone want to take a stab at the process you'd use and the tools you'd bring?

I do have a pushbutton starter switch that will hook to the starter solenoid with alligator clips. I should be able to figure out which terminal is the S terminal on the solenoid. I'll bring ether, but I'm not a big fan of the stuff. What about getting fuel to the injectors? If I bring a 5 gallon can of diesel, can I use an electric fuel pump to get the fresh diesel to the injectors somehow? I suspect the rack is likely stuck, so I'll check this first.

[bulletpruf]

More pics...

[sdbob]

I'd like to do that. I watch Diesel Creek and how he starts old equipment.

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by sdbob

I'd like to do that. I watch Diesel Creek and how he starts old equipment.

Yeah, that's my problem - I watch too much Diesel Creek.

[Keith Seymore]

Just a couple questions:

1 - Are you married?

2 - How would you get it home?

K

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Just a couple questions:

1 - Are you married?

2 - How would you get it home?

K

Yes.

On a low-boy.

I have plenty of room in the front yard.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by sdbob

I'd like to do that. I watch Diesel Creek and how he starts old equipment.

As Bob says, Matt, on "Diesel Creek", on You Tube, does this routinely, watch some of his videos to get an idea of what he uses for tools, and what he brings with him to do a start up on hibernating equipment.

His mission on his site is to try to save old equipment from going to the scrapyards. I just watched him start up a 6-71 Detriot stationary fire sprinkler pump engine that was in an old steel mill for 50 years last night on his station. The engine had last been serviced in 2016, so it had been idle for 7 years. Most of the stuff he gets running has been setting for decades though.

Also another one that bought an early 60s D8 with a pony motor start on another you Tube channel is "Ambition Strikes", The guy bought a piece of property on a mountain in Northern Idaho, and he needed a big dozer to recut the road from the highway, to the home site. He had more than his share of breakdowns right after he took possession of the D8. He did most of the repair himself, and finished the road cut with his newly aquired, 60 YO dozer.

The good thing about diesel equipment is that even decades old fuel will still run an engine, unlike gasoline that after a year or two won't even light with a torch if dumped on the ground.

From my own eperience with diesels, you need the best batteries you can get, because sustained cranking to bleed injection lines on a on a diesel is really hard on batteries, and starters. When I serviced diesel equipment on jobsites, and changed fuel filters, I always only cranked them for 10-15 seconds at a time, then let them cool down, to keep from burning up starters when purging the fuel systems. Many manufacturers have a feature on the lift pumps (fuel pump) that can be operated manually to purge air, but some do not have that feature, and have to be cranked with the starter to purge the system. Some have electric pumps, but you're not going to have an electric pump on a Cat engine of that age.

On using ether, it's really hard on any engine to run on ether, and if the intake manifold had grid heaters in it, you can blow the intake to shrapnel in a second. Be carefull when using ether, I only use it spareingly, and as a last resort when starting diesels, as well as gas engines. The ether shortcut, can really ruin parts quickly, and your in for some big expense, by trying to save a few minutes of troubleshooting time.

IDI engines tend to drop prechambers out of the heads when using ether, and once the prechamber comes loose it gets compressed between the piston, and cylinder head, rendering the engine junk.

Detroit 2 cycles seem to need ether to start in coldest weather, some even had factory installed ether cold start systems on them, operated from the drivers seat.

In the "Diesel Creek"videos, he is pretty conservative when trying to start old equipment when it comes to using ether. He'd rather it starts without it, but sometimes you need that little bit of pesuassion when starting something that has been dormant for decades.

I hope some of this info is helpful......

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

As Bob says, Matt, on "Diesel Creek", on You Tube, does this routinely, watch some of his videos to get an idea of what he uses for tools, and what he brings with him to do a start up on hibernating equipment.

His mission on his site is to try to save old equipment from going to the scrapyards. I just watched him start up a 6-71 Detriot stationary fire sprinkler pump engine that was in an old steel mill for 50 years last night on his station. The engine had last been serviced in 2016, so it had been idle for 7 years. Most of the stuff he gets running has been setting for decades though.

Also another one that bought an early 60s D8 with a pony motor start on another you Tube channel is "Ambition Strikes", The guy bought a piece of property on a mountain in Northern Idaho, and he needed a big dozer to recut the road from the highway, to the home site. He had more than his share of breakdowns right after he took possession of the D8. He did most of the repair himself, and finished the road cut with his newly aquired, 60 YO dozer.

The good thing about diesel equipment is that even decades old fuel will still run an engine, unlike gasoline that after a year or two won't even light with a torch if dumped on the ground.

From my own eperience with diesels, you need the best batteries you can get, because sustained cranking to bleed injection lines on a on a diesel is really hard on batteries, and starters. When I serviced diesel equipment on jobsites, and changed fuel filters, I always only cranked them for 10-15 seconds at a time, then let them cool down, to keep from burning up starters when purging the fuel systems. Many manufacturers have a feature on the lift pumps (fuel pump) that can be operated manually to purge air, but some do not have that feature, and have to be cranked with the starter to purge the system. Some have electric pumps, but you're not going to have an electric pump on a Cat engine of that age.

On using ether, it's really hard on any engine to run on ether, and if the intake manifold had grid heaters in it, you can blow the intake to shrapnel in a second. Be carefull when using ether, I only use it spareingly, and as a last resort when starting diesels, as well as gas engines. The ether shortcut, can really ruin parts quickly, and your in for some big expense, by trying to save a few minutes of troubleshooting time.

IDI engines tend to drop prechambers out of the heads when using ether, and once the prechamber comes loose it gets compressed between the piston, and cylinder head, rendering the engine junk.

Detroit 2 cycles seem to need ether to start in coldest weather, some even had factory installed ether cold start systems on them, operated from the drivers seat.

In the "Diesel Creek"videos, he is pretty conservative when trying to start old equipment when it comes to using ether. He'd rather it starts without it, but sometimes you need that little bit of pesuassion when starting something that has been dormant for decades.

I hope some of this info is helpful......

Good points on the ether and batteries, but what if the cylinders have water? Trying to figure out how to turn the engine over without bending a rod.

Thanks

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by bulletpruf

Good points on the ether and batteries, but what if the cylinders have water? Trying to figure out how to turn the engine over without bending a rod.

Thanks

Lots harder to get water into a diesel than a gas engine, but the injectors can be removed, similar to sparkplugs, but more involved to remove usually.

One other thing is water in the fuel, if it gets past the water seperators, it will wreak hell with the injection pump, and injectors. Be certain the water seperators are purged of water, and maybe have a auxilary fuel source (boat tank, etc.) until you confirm the onboard system is free of water. No telling what is in old tanks in construction equipment after decades of sitting outside.

Mice and squirrels can demolish an electrical system, so be vigilant to look for their damage to wiring. What rodents don't destroy, nature, and weather will. Then you have guys that own tools, that should never be allowed to touch anything mechanical, half assed repairs over decades of use can really pile up on something of that age.

[242177P]

[rolling money pits]

lol

If the answer to #1 is no…..then #2 becomes irrelevant.

[srmmmm]

I'd definitely drain the water separator first. Whenever I had starting issues with the 5.7L diesel in my 1981 Bonneville, WD40 was my go to starting fluid. You can spray it directly into the intake and the engine will idle on it just fine until your injector lines are purged.

Thanks to some insider (one of my GMI roommates was on the Oldsmobile V-6 diesel development team), I got 269,000 miles out of that car before a Texas hailstorm literally destroyed ever horizontal surface on the body. There was nothing quite like getting over 800 miles on a tank of fuel on the highway.

Here's a recent startup of d dormant D7:

https://www.google.com/search?q=1959...4WkJawTks,st:0

[Stuart]

Another channel you may like is Squatch253. He's done meticulous, nut and bolt restorations on a couple smaller Caterpillars, a couple D2's and an RD6. Also, a factory prototype Minneapolis-Moline crawler and a couple Farmall tractors. https://www.youtube.com/@squatch253

[Sirrotica]

The lift pump is what supplies the injection pump with fuel, you need to plumb into the fuel system before the water seperators, and fuel filters, so you have filtered water free fuel coming to the injection pump. The injection pump multiplies the fuel pressure from low pressure, to high pressure necessay to spray fuel out of the injectors. Diesel fuel filters are usually about 10 microns, so gasoline filters won't adequately filter particulate that can harm an injection pump. Once you understand the process of how fuel is delivered it makes sense on why things need to be done in a certain way. Having to have an injection pump rebuilt is very costly, so I wouldn't recommend by passing the fuel filters, not worth the risk IMO.

Shortcutting is a way of increasing risk, without much margin of gain. WD 40 sprayed into an intake with electric heat grids will end the same way as ether will, likely an explosion. The intake manifolds in diesels have zero fuel in them, so inducing fuel where there may be heaters, won't end well. The old CAT engines with pony start motors, ran the exhaust from the pony motor through the center of the intake to preheat the intake air. In lieu of a pony motor for intake heat, many manufacturers used electric grid heaters to heat the intake air up. As ambient air temps fall below 40 degrees the difficulty of starting a cold diesel engine is drastically reduced, hence the need for glow plugs, or grid heaters in the engines.

In winter I have heated up the intakes with a torch to aid in warm air getting into the engine allowing it to start easier, if an engine was particularily hard to start. Of course block heaters also allow the iron to remain warm so that there is easier ignition of a cold engine too. Warming the coolant with a block heater will aid in cold start success also.

Diesels also need to spin over fast to maximize heat in the cylinders to ignite fuel, weak batteries, or a dragging starter won't allow enough starter RPM to ignite fuel in a cold engine. When the starter is slowing down, the likelyhood of a cold start is reduced expotentially. As Tim the Toolman Taylor says, "MORE POWER".........

If I'm spinning a diesel for a cold start, I like to either have a jumper from a running truck, or a large battery charger in the neighborhood of at least 200 amps while spinning it over. I learned a long time ago that less than 200 RPM with the starter won't start most diesels, especially if cold.

[ftwmlp]

Good Luck! We have a 70's vintage CAT tracked loader on our place that has been a continual pain in the a--. Be prepared for sticker stock if you buy CAT branded batteries (or any CAT branded product really). Also the batteries are HEAVY, ours weigh 80 lbs each and you have to lift them over the tracks to get them in the compartment.

Ours has a manual primer pump that pulls diesel to the front where the pump does not have to work as hard at start up. I'm not familiar with the D7, but if it has glow plugs be sure and let them do their thing for at least a minute or two before even attempting to crank.

If this machine does not have hydraulic transmission or lift cylinders, consider yourself lucky. Hydraulic seals are our biggest problem.

Here is a link to a forum full of good info about old heavy equipment:
https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/

This is a link to an online supply house that has the best pricing I have found for our machine:
https://offroadeq.com/

Mike Pearson

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by ftwmlp

Good Luck! We have a 70's vintage CAT tracked loader on our place that has been a continual pain in the a--. Be prepared for sticker stock if you buy CAT branded batteries (or any CAT branded product really). Also the batteries are HEAVY, ours weigh 80 lbs each and you have to lift them over the tracks to get them in the compartment.

Ours has a manual primer pump that pulls diesel to the front where the pump does not have to work as hard at start up. I'm not familiar with the D7, but if it has glow plugs be sure and let them do their thing for at least a minute or two before even attempting to crank.

If this machine does not have hydraulic transmission or lift cylinders, consider yourself lucky. Hydraulic seals are our biggest problem.

Here is a link to a forum full of good info about old heavy equipment:
https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/

This is a link to an online supply house that has the best pricing I have found for our machine:
https://offroadeq.com/

Mike Pearson

I don't think this has glow plugs.

I'm actually on the heavy equipment forums already, but I'll check out the offroadeq.com one.

I'll check for a primer pump; that would be nice.

Thanks!

Scott

[Jay S]

Usually the first thing do on a piece of heavy equipment that has been parked a long time is to check all the fluids, if anything is over full, that means it is overfull from water at the bottom. Can also crack open drain plugs to get excessive water drained out before it is moved. Mostly on final drives and transmission, and most importantly, the engine.

Bad connections on a 24V system or low voltage will burn the batter connections off. Only start it with the batteries charged up good.


We have a 2 IHC TD24s, IHC TD20C, and a Cat D8H. Used for mostly conservation work on our property.

[sdbob]

Watching one of those programs getting dozer started. They had the fuel rail(I call it) was stuck.They either got fuel on it or sprayed it with penetrate, finally it moved they were afraid of run on also. I have no experience with construction equipment. The wife use to say 'you'll never grow up' with my projects. I would say ,'what's your point'! She would walk away.

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

The lift pump is what supplies the injection pump with fuel, you need to plumb into the fuel system before the water seperators, and fuel filters, so you have filtered water free fuel coming to the injection pump. The injection pump multiplies the fuel pressure from low pressure, to high pressure necessay to spray fuel out of the injectors. Diesel fuel filters are usually about 10 microns, so gasoline filters won't adequately filter particulate that can harm an injection pump. Once you understand the process of how fuel is delivered it makes sense on why things need to be done in a certain way. Having to have an injection pump rebuilt is very costly, so I wouldn't recommend by passing the fuel filters, not worth the risk IMO.

Shortcutting is a way of increasing risk, without much margin of gain. WD 40 sprayed into an intake with electric heat grids will end the same way as ether will, likely an explosion. The intake manifolds in diesels have zero fuel in them, so inducing fuel where there may be heaters, won't end well. The old CAT engines with pony start motors, ran the exhaust from the pony motor through the center of the intake to preheat the intake air. In lieu of a pony motor for intake heat, many manufacturers used electric grid heaters to heat the intake air up. As ambient air temps fall below 40 degrees the difficulty of starting a cold diesel engine is drastically reduced, hence the need for glow plugs, or grid heaters in the engines.

In winter I have heated up the intakes with a torch to aid in warm air getting into the engine allowing it to start easier, if an engine was particularily hard to start. Of course block heaters also allow the iron to remain warm so that there is easier ignition of a cold engine too. Warming the coolant with a block heater will aid in cold start success also.

Diesels also need to spin over fast to maximize heat in the cylinders to ignite fuel, weak batteries, or a dragging starter won't allow enough starter RPM to ignite fuel in a cold engine. When the starter is slowing down, the likelyhood of a cold start is reduced expotentially. As Tim the Toolman Taylor says, "MORE POWER".........

If I'm spinning a diesel for a cold start, I like to either have a jumper from a running truck, or a large battery charger in the neighborhood of at least 200 amps while spinning it over. I learned a long time ago that less than 200 RPM with the starter won't start most diesels, especially if cold.

I'll see what I can plumb up tomorrow once I get there, but I understand your point on getting fresh filtered fuel to the injectors.

I agree with you 100% on spinning it over fast to get it to start. The owner has some 4D batteries but they're not charged. I'm bringing a generator and a few chargers; hope we can charge them on site and then wire up for 24v. I'm also bringing a few fresh batteries from my F350 just in case.

Almost forgot - the D7 should have a compression release; if so, and if it's operational, that should help.

[b-man]

You’ve lost your freaking mind.