[4zpeed]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Frank,
Remember seating velocity is not only a function of cam / ramp design, but also RPM.

Stan

Agreed, I like the 703 advertised at 1600-5800, in my humble oppinion a excellent choice for a 400.
I like the grunt but also love to wind it up as well, no sacrifice there, just a very nice compromise.

6k is nothing to worry about, it will live a long happy life even though I abuse it along the way.
To me it all starts with the cam, everything else is a condiment, lil salt here lil pepper there.

Never had a cam ground, maybe take a walk on the wild side, doo, doo doo, doo doo, doo doo doo ...


Frank

[Steve C.]

From Pontiac engineer Malcolm "Mac" McKellar a driving force behind Pontiac camshaft design....

The 041 was often touted in vintage Pontiac sales literature as the division's first "computer-designed" camshaft. Of that, Pontiac cam designer Mac McKellar says, "That's somewhat true-but not totally.
We used a computer to generate the blueprints, and computer technology was hot at that time, so advertising decided to incorporate that."

He goes on....

" I wish we could have used roller technology back then. It would have cut friction and allowed us to improve performance and street manners, but it wasn't available at that time," says McKellar.

Fast forward in time, it would be interesting to ask if he would use those lobes today designing a hydraulic flat tappet cam. I doubt it, and suspect it would go beyond cutting friction !


.

[Stan Weiss]

Has anyone ever run a Pontiac RAIV / 041 cam on a Cam DR? Based on this (From H-O) it looks like it maybe asymmetrical. I do know that the Crane version of the 041 for which I got Cam DR information from Ken Krocie (H-O Enterprises) is asymmetrical.

Stan

[Tom Vaught]

Ken Crocie. Stan

Tom V.

[Cliff R]

I've used the Crane 041 replacement. Back when I bought them they were advertised as "computuer smoothed" or something like that. They worked equally as well as the factory 041 cam from what I could tell, but this was quite a few years before I dyno'd our engines or had a car than ran so well at the track I could see the results of taking a piss between runs if I made them pretty close together.

One has to also consider here, when it comes to selecting a cam for an iron headed 455 around 10 to 1 compression you are NOT going to outrun the old Wolverine 5059 cam. You can go a little smaller, a little bigger, or tighter LSA and at the end of the day the original version is going to be the best overall choice. Jim Hand did more cam testing than anyone else I know and those facts are well documented.

I've also done cam testing, dyno and at the track, plus cylinder head swaps, intakes, spacers, and truck loads of carburetors. When it comes to cams, at least flat tappet with the stock diameter lifters, going to lobes with quicker seating velocities or other features that dub them "modern" really doesn't make much difference. Even moving to a roller cam didn't show much when I back to back tested them. If it wasn't for the high lobe/lifter failure rates a flat tappet cam will run right with a roller of similar .050" duration by simply adding high ratio rockers and Rhoads lifters. You just have to pick a cam with a little longer seat timing @ .006" compared to the HR, then tame it at low RPM with the Rhoads lifters and mimic it's cylinder filling abilities everywhere else with the high ratio rocker arms.......FWIW.....

[Cliff R]

PS: I had to chuckle some when I read this:

"The 041 was often touted in vintage Pontiac sales literature as the division's first "computer-designed" camshaft"

From what I remember of computers back then, one about 2 percent as good as a cheap laptop computer available today took up two or three floors of a decent size office building down town!........

[Tom Vaught]

I should mention that Clay Smith and his camshafts were ever bit as good as Mr ISKY and Mr Brookshires cam profiles.

A lot of very talented camshaft grinders in the old days.

[Tim Corcoran]

Originally Posted by steve25

I take issue with post 15.
I think Pontiac / GM was the first back in 67 to use a computer to assist in Cam design in terms of the 041 Cam then to be used in the 68 1/2. RA2 round port 400.

Steve, When I was talking with Harold he may have given me a time frame when he started using computers to design lobe profiles but if he did I don't remember. Anyhow I am just repeating what Harold told me on the phone in the early 90's.

[Steve C.]

I'll give everyone a very very short history of me, so you'll know where I came from.

1969---Went to work for State of Mississippi as computer operator, rose to be lead operator at CDPA, Central Data Processing Agency.
1972---Began working on cam design program in my spare time.
Dec 15, 1972---Sold 310AP SBC solid to Reed Cams, Georgia, for $125.00.
1973---Made $3000 selling to Reed, Isky, Engle, Norris.
1974---Designed Reed's RxxxULX line of rollers, and a lot more, including Benny Parson's 1975 Daytona 500-winning cam. Also Shirl Greer's TF/FC NHRA National Champion Nitro Funny car cam, designed for Norris, and it was a True Chrysler flat tappet, with .438" lobe lift.
1974---Became General Kinetics' cam designer, worked with people like Bill Jenkins and Jack Roush on the cams for their ProStockers.
1976---Jenkins wins Pro Stock Natinal Championship, with GK doing large-barrel cams.
1977---I start in January with Competion Cams, as their original cam designer. Over the next 3 years, I design them hundreds of cams, including the 268 High Energy. I introduce them to the unsymmetrical cam.
1979---I write them their 1st in-house cam design program. Before that, we shared a program with Cam Dynamics.
1980---After negotiating since late 1976 for some stock ownership in Competition Cams, I leave and start UltraDyne on April 1st, 1980. The 1st month I design the 288/296F5 and the 288/296R6, the 2 most popular cams I ever made.
1981---In September, I hire my 1st employee, Mike O'Neal, who ran my shop, made all my models and masters, etc.
1982---We're running 2 shifts, from 7:00 AM to 12:00 PM. Tim Goolsby comes to work for me, he is Mike's brother-in-law. I also design UltraDyne's first hydraulic cams, such as the 272, the 276, the 288/296H.
From then on until 2000, we all just worked. UltraDyne grossed over $1.2 Million a year from 1990 to 1999.
2000---A number of independent factors began to take their toll---Federal Mogul acquiring my 2 major solid lifter core manufacturers, and their later Chapter 11, Lifter companies disappearring, tremendous cash-flow problems in the end of 2000, initially triggered by the UPS strike---We lost around $50,000 in the strike.
2001---A un-named cam company in Memphis hires 8 of my 12 employees, and 2 more just leave because they think --that's it. Only Tim and Gail are left with me.
2001-2003---UltraDyne is in the Chapter 11 'Death Spiral'. I take a $0 salary for 2002, and pump all my, and my wife's, retirment money into UltraDyne, along with all the equity I could get on my house, etc, etc, etc.
June 2003---Everything is gone, the government locks the doors.
August 2003---I go to work at Lunati, charged with completely re-doing their entire line of cams. Mike is already there, waiting for me, along with Steve Slavik, who worked for me for 13 years (Mike for 19...). Then I meet the corporate world.....
Oct 2004---Lunati introduces the VooDoo cams. And they really work good.....

This has been the line and times of a cam designer, and even with the down sides, it has been the time of my life, and I'm going to stay at it as long as I can.....

No comments are necessary, you are all a great bunch, and as that Great American, Minnie Pearl, said, "I'm just so proud to be here!"

Thanks,
UDHarold

Side note:

25 years ago Harold Brookshire produced a lot of Pontiac cams. According to Harold, Jim Butler was his largest buyer of camshafts at UltraDyne, doing over $65,000 a year. Jim Butler thought they worked very well, until the recession of 2000 left UltraDyne with an inability to keep him supplied. At that time Jim started working with Chris Mays at Comp with cams using XE lobes.


.

[Tim Corcoran]

If I was going to run a flat tappet cam again I would go with a solid lifter cam and use Hy-Lift Johnson solid lifters with the EDM hole for oiling the cam. With the hole in the bottom of the lifter you are using pressurized oil between the lifter and cam lobe and not relying entirely on splash lubrication. I would use Joe Gibbs Driven break in oil and I would remove the inner springs for break cam break in. I would not select an XE cam as too aggressive lobe lift adds the chance of having a failure. After break in I would continue to use an oil with a additional ZDDP package like Brad Penn, Driven, or others.

[Jim Moshier]

I ran a Clay Smith Cam in my 64 Falcon 289 and was very pleased with the results. I haven't heard that name in a few years, are they still around?

[67Lemons]

Originally Posted by Jim Moshier

I ran a Clay Smith Cam in my 64 Falcon 289 and was very pleased with the results. I haven't heard that name in a few years, are they still around?

Yep, still around & grinding all sorts of cams including Pontiacs.

[Ram Air IV Jack]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Also, as it relates to this hobby we NEVER had any issues at all till the early 2000's. Didn't matter if we were swapping out a cam in one of our 4 x 4 trucks in a barn with a dirt floor working off a dirty/dusty work bench, or in a gravel driveway working off a picnic table. ZERO problems. We didn't even know much about "break-in", using "special" oils, lighter "break-in" springs, nothing done at all put put the cams in and go drive the vehicle like you stole it.. FWIW.....

Back in the 1980's we did this same thing. Removed an old cam and lifters out of a 70's Pontiac Safari Station wagon with a 400 that developed a miss due to a worn lobe. We went to Big A auto parts for a replacement. They had it and we went back to the parking lot of my friend's apartment building and put the new cam in. Poured some STP over the cam and lifters and put it back together. Started it up and ran it "like we stole it". Never an issue. Seems like a lot of monkey business today with these offshore camshafts and the procedure to break them in!!!

[Jim Moshier]

my go to, to install a cam was 50/50 30wt oil and STP on the cam and lifters topped off the oil pan with straight 30wt oil. ran hi idle for about 10 minutes as the water shooting out the radiator by then had to cool everything down long enough to refill the radiator and get a cap on it then we would drive 20 minutes to Van Nuys Blvd Bank of America! for some Saturday night street racing.
Never lost a cam lobe or lifter Crane, Sig Erson, Clay Smith and of course Performance Automotive Warehouse (PAW Cams) it was Summit Racing before Summit Racing was open

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Also, as it relates to this hobby we NEVER had any issues at all till the early 2000's...

...Then out of knowhere we started seeing LOTS of lifter/lobe failures followed by just about everyone on the Forums coming in with some theory why it was happening.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ns_Act_of_2000

Thanks, Billy C. Tell your wife I said "I'm Deplorable".

[P@blo]

If these market leaders can make a roller they can make a FT cam and lifters easier and for less money. Wheels were invented long before cams those silly rabbits.

"We decide right here what you can buy" does not work in my books. And not everything gets said at a table discussion. Not one person countered an argument as was a lot of marketing going on. Especially for the guy on the left that had trouble remaining seated while talking. He's itching for something...

[Sirrotica]

Good video on XE comp cams:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH31...BlackLabGarage

As HB said, he engineered the High Energy series of cams, and quit, and after he left comp, the extreme engery cams came about. I used a whole bunch of the HE cams in just about every engine family at that time, only one failure in a sludge ball BBC. I've never used a XE cam because of the failure rates, and noise problems, I've seen, and heard about from other people in the business.

I have to agree, back in the day we probably did every thing today that they tell you not to do when changing cams, and they always just worked. That included factory cams as well as, aftermarket cams. In 1977-78, is when wiped cams and lifters started to show up very frequently, mostly at first in SBCs, and then in everything.

[michaelfind]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Good video on XE comp cams:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH31...BlackLabGarage

As HB said, he engineered the High Energy series of cams, and quit, and after he left comp, the extreme engery cams came about. I used a whole bunch of the HE cams in just about every engine family at that time, only one failure in a sludge ball BBC. I've never used a XE cam because of the failure rates, and noise problems, I've seen, and heard about from other people in the business.

I have to agree, back in the day we probably did every thing today that they tell you not to do when changing cams, and they always just worked. That included factory cams as well as, aftermarket cams. In 1977-78, is when wiped cams and lifters started to show up very frequently, mostly at first in SBCs, and then in everything.

That is what I recall as well. In the 1980s, we saw HFT failures a few times. Seems to be more common in recent years but I remember them happening even in my small circle of motorhead friends well before the 2000s.