[glhs#116]

So... Apparently I wrote this all up last night and didn't hit "post".

Test drive last night because I finally got all the correct pieces in place between the shifter and my TH350. Long story but because it was a TH400 car and "because Doha" all sorts of pieces were wrong or improvised so shifter geometry was always a bit iffy. Definitely couldn't use the ratchet shift.

So, it's starting to cool down a bit here. It was maybe 90s last night instead of the usual 100s. Car running better of course. But I noticed that oil pressure was fluctuating a bit. But mostly it was where it always is so I just sort of kept an eye on it. After a few successful tests of the ratchet shifter (nice to have that working) I was gently turning onto another road to head home when I saw oil pressure zero. I'm ashamed to say that it was such a shock I didn't kill it immediately because it was like one of those dreams where things are unreal. But I started to faintly hear that ol' low oil pressure lifter sound starting and I knew it was real and killed it. Maybe ten maybe fifteen seconds. Just hit the key once to see if it was siezed. The starter was willing to turn it slowly like if you try and start it heat soaked. That bit was very fast because I just wanted to know if siezed. Pushed it to the side of the road. Started walking home. In one of those weird Doha incidents I actually came across a tow truck on my way home who agreed to collect the car with me. So I have it home.



Problems, there are a few. First, whatever I'm going to need I need to order first (and I'm not really so flush with money that I can afford to order much more than I need). I checked oil level it was good and looking normal. So I'm thinking one way or other oil pump failed or got blocked by something.

Pan I need, mine got a bit squished anyway by the car partially coming down on it when the jack slipped off the crossmember when I was lowering it. This didn't seem more than cosmetic at the time but who knows if the oil pump got partially hit by some of the pan and cracked or something? That all happened a couple months ago so if it did anything it didn't do it right away.

So, pump and pump rod and pickup also. Bearings. Ai! I guess I should consider that a fairly high possibility. Crank and rod at least, right?

So then the next problem is that my parking area is across the road from my house which is above ground level and behind a wall. If I manage to find a place to hire a hoist then if it is more than a day's work I need to take it inside. It's just too dusty. And then I guess I need an engine stand. And of course the big problem that between taking the engine out and it getting inside we are talking about going down a ramp from the parking to the road, up a ramp to the gate (which has a lip at the bottom) and then up to the house which is all like four steps up from ground level. I just can't imagine how all that can work but if I'm going to look at bearings and maybe even replace them then surely it needs to come in? I could do a pan and oil pump in the parking area I'm sure. Really not sure what to do. I mean, my car is on the street outside my gate right now because the tow driver and I couldn't push it up into the parking area. But it can't stay there and I certainly can't take it apart there.

And here I was thinking of showing up at Wednesday's Test and Tune at Qatar Racing Club...



Sam

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Wow, sorry for your luck.
Is the distributor turning?
Maybe the pickup tube fell/got knocked off.

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

Wow, sorry for your luck.
Is the distributor turning?
Maybe the pickup tube fell/got knocked off.

Yes. I had to turn it off with the key. It would have run until it siezed so distributor must be turning. Don't know about the pickup tube. I was told Pontiac pump is submerged so should get oil even if pickup falls off?

Sam

[Squidward]

I will guess there was some pump damage during the stated pan incident. Disty runs directly off cam, and disty turns oil pump shaft, so I would expect the engine to still run if you sheared off the pump shaft.

You are correct regarding the oil pump pickup.

Pull the disty and see if the pump shaft is there or damaged. Look at the bottom of the disty shaft, too. If pump shaft is there, try turning it ccw to see if it has normal resistance. If you have a priming tool, see if that works and if you can get a prime.

Worst case would be catastrophic pump fail, where it damaged the block at the mounting spot.

You could also try using an endoscope camera to visually explore through the pan.

It sounds like you shut it off quickly, hopefully the bearings, etc. are ok. I used to run a 77 Nova with Chevy straight 6 out of oil every other day for a full summer. I only kept a couple quarts in it. When the lifters started rattling and cylinders stopped firing I knew it was time to add a quart. Sometimes motors surprise you.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, at least mentally anyways.

[steve25]

You had the pan off right? and it's all too likely that in your swap some small enough crap out into the pump and into the check ball to hold it open and make for your issue, in fact I think you already had some crap caught up which was making for you jumping pressure readings as it was!
If I am wrong then the next possibility is that as posted already the pump drive shaft has failed .
Hearing only lifter tic many times means that the Bearings may still be ok, but either way you can't now just take that for granted, so you know where this all is leading, right?

[glhs#116]

Engine was all together until now. As discussed, now that I have to take it out I face a lot of challenges. Not least of which, I spent all day in industrial area. No one rents and no one has engine stand or hoist for sale for less than the cost of me buying and shipping from Summit

Sam

[F ROCK]

did you try and fired it up today after it cooled off?I'm no expert but it's not uncommonfor a older hot Pontiac engine to show 0 oil pressure at idle.my fresh engine doesn't do it but my old engine does it all the time and has for a few years.I just rev it up a little and it comes right back up

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by F ROCK

did you try and fired it up today after it cooled off?I'm no expert but it's not uncommonfor a older hot Pontiac engine to show 0 oil pressure at idle.my fresh engine doesn't do it but my old engine does it all the time and has for a few years.I just rev it up a little and it comes right back up

Well... Considering that I have to pretty much get the engine out just to do the pan. And considering that if I'm getting zero when I never had below 40psi before now. I'm pretty much going to at least replace pump, drive rod and pickup tube. So I'm not terribly keen to turn the engine over again until I get it out and see what is what.

There are a lot of practical difficulties but I may or may not have someone to borrow an engine hoist from (it could be something completely unsuitable but I'll have to wait until I can see it).

In the meantime I need an engine stand to do the work. I see there are $80-$90 stands with a simple handle for rotating the engine and $240 ones with a geared rotation handle. Now clearly the geared one would be nicer but I'm more keen on saving the cash if the cheaper one is usable. I'll need the extra cash for bearings, gaskets, shipping...

Sam

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Have it pulled by a wrecker type tow truck.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Meanhile try adding 2 quarts willy nilly and start it up and see what psi you get with rpm.

Then cut the oil filter to see gray, or sparkly metals.

Doesn't sound like oil stayed ar zero.

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Is the oil pressure gauge actually working? For sure?

[Richie Hoffman]

You can get the pan out by just lifting engine up high

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by Richie Hoffman

You can get the pan out by just lifting engine up high

I went through that in another thread. It's true, this is what the factory service manual describes. However, the feedback from a lot of people who have done it is that it's a dicey operation. Also, just going to be easier to deal with whatever I find if I get the engine out as a lot of people recommended to me. Bearings are hopefully and probably OK but it's not exactly a given. Pump probably clogged or broken (or oil pump driveshaft). I believe the gauge because I started to hear the lifters.

Sam

[steve25]

You have a issue , DO NOT TRY TO RESTART THE MOTOR AGAIN until you fully know the extent of any damage done, which will hopefully be none!

When checking Bearings the number 2 rod ( front on the drivers bank) gets oiled last so if rod bearing damage was done that's the one that would show it the most!

Main bearing wise I would pull all of the caps down but for the rear for inspection.

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by steve25

You have a issue , DO NOT TRY TO RESTART THE MOTOR AGAIN until you fully know the extent of any damage done, which will hopefully be none!

When checking Bearings the number 2 rod ( front on the drivers bank) gets oiled last so if rod bearing damage was done that's the one that would show it the most!

Main bearing wise I would pull all of the caps down but for the rear for inspection.

Thanks for the inspection advice. Very well noted. Don't worry. This engine is not turning over until after it comes apart.

Sam

[steve25]

Good!
People telling you to try and crank it again must of been hit in the side of the Head by a rod and piston ventilating a block at 5000 rpm if you ask me!
I don't know what you have for good size tree's out there with level ground under it , but the term" shade tree repair" has been done many times with a chain a come- a-long!

[Will]

Drain the oil and let it sit for a day or two to see if anything settles out in the bottom of the pan. There can be a lot of metal in the oil and you won't see it on the dipstick. Look for a silvery-metallic sheen to the oil when you drain it.

Also cut the filter open and look for particles. Problem with that is if the pump stopped pumping prior to there being any damage then nothing would've gotten trapped in the filter. If there are particles in the filter then you know for sure you have bearing damage.

[beertracker]

Not knowing the history of your engine my first thought is one of the oil gallery caps popped out? I like to thread the gallery opening and use a cap screw. bt

[steve25]

I have never seen a factory plug pop out, not that it could not take place though, the odds must be dam low!

The oil routing in the block is such that the passenger side lifter bank gets oiled last out of all the Bearings and lifters in the rest of the motor, so it the first place noise would show up from low oil pressure.
I would assume this was the side you commented on making lifter noise in your post?

[glhs#116]

Originally Posted by steve25

I have never seen a factory plug pop out, not that it could not take place though, the odds must be dam low!

The oil routing in the block is such that the passenger side lifter bank gets oiled last out of all the Bearings and lifters in the rest of the motor, so it the first place noise would show up from low oil pressure.
I would assume this was the side you commented on making lifter noise in your post?

Considering that it was at night, I could hardly believe what was happening, I was trying to avoid getting rear-ended (Qatar traffic is fast-paced), and I was thinking myself through the process of turning the ignition off (steering locks) and then back on. It was all rather fast. I basically gave it a few seconds and a little extra rev to see if the needle would pick up, listened hard, started hearing the faint start of a lifter tick and keyed right off. Couldn't tell you more than "engine bay" for location.

Sam