[2BadZ]

I recently pulled out my 79 TA that has been parked since 1996 and not touched since then.
I intended to change the oil before I tried to get it going. The oil filter was getting pretty rusty and I couldn't get my wrench on it, so I drove a screwdriver through it and took it off. Some sludge but some clear oil as well.
My surprise came when I pulled the drain plug on the oil pan. Nothing came out except a small amount of brown dust. Drain plug had been in tight, no signs of rust on the oil pan, don't recall any oil where I had it parked. Moved it once into my garage several years ago, and into a car hauler a couple of years ago.

Some questions.

Any ideas on where the oil went? I poured a little fresh oil through and it came out with some debris in it.
Anything I could do to clean the engine without taking the oil pan out?
Anyone have any idea on what to expect if I do partially tear it down, after what was likely many years without any oil in the engine?
Any other ideas or thoughts will be appreciated.

[b-man]

Where the oil went?

You parked it in 1996 after draining the oil I suppose.

No matter what that engine is coming out for at the very least a partial teardown and inspection, no easy shortcuts on this.

If you live where it’s cold and moist during the winter there’s a good chance the entire crankcase has rusted up if all that came out of the drain plug opening was brown dust (rust?).

[2BadZ]

Originally Posted by b-man

Where the oil went?

You parked it in 1996 after draining the oil I suppose.

No matter what that engine is coming out for at the very least a partial teardown and inspection, no easy shortcuts on this.

If you live where it’s cold and moist during the winter there’s a good chance the entire crankcase has rusted up if all that came out of the drain plug opening was brown dust (rust?).

No, I didn't drain the oil when I parked it.

I had not expected to find this problem for sure. Might be parked a lot more years if I need to tear it down.

It's more like cold and cold during the winter, but I hear what you're saying. Might very well be as you say.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by b-man

Where the oil went?

You parked it in 1996 after draining the oil I suppose.

No matter what that engine is coming out for at the very least a partial teardown and inspection, no easy shortcuts on this.

If you live where it’s cold and moist during the winter there’s a good chance the entire crankcase has rusted up if all that came out of the drain plug opening was brown dust (rust?).

This^^^100%. Also, if a Pontiac engine, likely the timing cover is rotten behind the pump. I have run into this on engines that sat 15-30 years.
I would at pull it to get the pan off and inspect and clean. The 'no oil' and 'debris comes out with new oil' are bright red flags. No Vice Grip Garage quickie revival on this one, IMO.

[MarkS57]

^^ that's what's tough about this. The OP mentions pulling it out so assume it was in something. Where does 6 qts of oil go? Wonder if there was evil afoot somewhere...image if it happened way earlier on and the OP started it up with no oil... Just saying...

[77 TRASHCAN]

Take a coat hanger and carefully poke around through the drain hole.

[2BadZ]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

Take a coat hanger and carefully poke around through the drain hole.

I'll give it a try. I tried a 1/4" wood drill bit, but I can put a bit of a bend in a coat hanger.

[tjs72lemans]

Hopefully you didn't have any enemies and one of them slipped over and drained your oil on the ground to get at you.

[Sirrotica]

Parked outside you can leak 6 quarts of oil on the ground, and over 10 years, and there won't be any trace of it. A rust hole in the pan could easily empty the pan over 10 years.

Microscopic bacteria actually will eat petrochemicals over time, that is what happens to oil spilled in the ocean by off shore rigs when the leak millions of barrels into the ocean.

As I said, take it out and inspect it if you really want to preserve the engine, If you don't really care about it, roll the dice with flushes, etc. Just like Dirty Harry said, "Do you feel lucky"?

The thing is, if you spend time and money flushing the engine out, put oil in it, only to find a pin hole due to rust from the inside, now you're back to pulling the pan anyway, unless you want to use an epoxy (JB Weld) to stop the leak. Lots of ways to go, but many are sketchy, and you're guessing, and testing your good fortune.

I'll add that I have been down this road before, and tried the cheap, easy way, and it cost me money, and time. So speaking from someone that has more bad luck than good, I'd have a look see inside.

Ya ever notice that every time VGG does one of these find a car, get it running, and drive it back home, he either doesn't make it, or when he starts running the car on the road, (after his low dollar "Restoration"), it has a blue cloud behind it? Roadkill has about the same results, sometimes they get lucky, and all the stars, and planets align, but I see more failures than successes.....

[2BadZ]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Parked outside you can leak 6 quarts of oil on the ground, and over 10 years, and there won't be any trace of it. A rust hole in the pan could easily empty the pan over 10 years.

Microscopic bacteria actually will eat petrochemicals over time, that is what happens to oil spilled in the ocean by off shore rigs when the leak millions of barrels into the ocean.

As I said, take it out and inspect it if you really want to preserve the engine, If you don't really care about it, roll the dice with flushes, etc. Just like Dirty Harry said, "Do you feel lucky"?

The thing is, if you spend time and money flushing the engine out, put oil in it, only to find a pin hole due to rust from the inside, now you're back to pulling the pan anyway, unless you want to use an epoxy (JB Weld) to stop the leak. Lots of ways to go, but many are sketchy, and you're guessing, and testing your good fortune.

I'll add that I have been down this road before, and tried the cheap, easy way, and it cost me money, and time. So speaking from someone that has more bad luck than good, I'd have a look see inside.

Ya ever notice that every time VGG does one of these find a car, get it running, and drive it back home, he either doesn't make it, or when he starts running the car on the road, (after his low dollar "Restoration"), it has a blue cloud behind it? Roadkill has about the same results, sometimes they get lucky, and all the stars, and planets align, but I see more failures than successes.....

If the oil is gone, and not just sludge, your explanation could be right.

I may go the flush route to start. My goal was to get it started before I put any time and money into it. If I have to tear apart either engine, it would like be the 455.

[2BadZ]

Originally Posted by tjs72lemans

Hopefully you didn't have any enemies and one of them slipped over and drained your oil on the ground to get at you.

I had mentioned that possibly to my wife, but here reply included words such as "you're" and "crazy"

It was never drained on the ground or I'd have seen some sign of it, and it's highly unlikely someone drained it and took the oil away. And considering where it was parked, it would be very highly unlikely someone would do it, or even have a reason to do it.

[b-man]

The oil either leaked out or it solidified into sludge.

Poking around with a stiff wire should produce some sludge I would think.

The oil pan needs to come off. Engine removal makes the most sense.

One might imagine all the freeze plugs are likely in need of replacement as well, in order to access them all the engine needs to come out.

Bringing a car back to life after it has been sitting unused for a quarter century usually means replacing and cleaning many of the components in the fuel, braking and cooling systems as well.

Did that recently to 2 of mine, air cooled VW buses not Pontiacs. First was a 1956 panel bus sitting outside since 1992 and after 1-1/2 years of my spare time back on the road in 2019. The other was a 1966 pickup sitting inside since 1994 and resurrected in 2020 after the better part of a year getting it going again. Spent about 3 thousand dollars on each one repairing and replacing various things including new tires.

Good luck.

[1965gp]

Was it sitting inside or outside?

I would dump a good amount of oil over both sides of rockers and let it drain right out. Maybe even some motor flush.

I wouldn’t try to turn it over yet. Pull the plugs and fill cylinder’s with marvel mystery oil and let it sit a week.

Then manually try to turn it over without plugs in. If it turns, crank it with no plugs (and fresh oil). Then drain it all again, put in fresh oil and crank again. You may want to add motor flush to help clean it out. Just crank it without plugs and don’t start it. See if oil flows through pushrods.

Finally put it all back together and try to start it. Run for 30-60 seconds and change oil and filter. Repeat this until the oil clears up.

The dust in the oil pan is concerning- hopefully it’s not too damaged.

I know others have said pull it, but if it might be damaged you have nothing to lose going through this process other than $200 in oil and filters.

[Sirrotica]

If the pan has dirt, or rust in it, you're not going to be able to start it, and hope the oil filter keeps it out of the bearings. If the bypass valve opens, all that crap is going right into the crank, bearings, and lifters, ruining every internally lubed part as well as filling the oil galleys with abrasive crap that can only be removed by completely disassembling the engine. Even if the engine was good when parked, it likely will be junk by just running it any length of time.

Having run dirt track cars (Pontiacs exclusively) for many years, and seeing first hand how just a tiny bit of dirt grinds up engine parts in a very short time, I would never recommend starting any engine that you know has abrasive bits inside of it. As large as the pores are in a conventional oil filter, all the fine particles will pass right through it anyway. 40 microns is the usual size of the media pores in most full flow oil filters, 40 micron particles will score any internally lubed parts.

Pull the engine, and look at everything that is covered by tin, (pan, valve covers, and valley cover) to assess what your working with. Pontiac oil pans have been known to rust through, especially if it was ran in a road salt environment they rust from the outside in. If they have water in the pan, I have seen them rust from the inside out. A pinhole could easily empty the pan over decades.

Crossing your fingers and hoping the oil filter gets all the dirt, and retains it, is foolish in my opinion, and I turned wrenches for over 50 years for a living. Even if the oil filter is successful in catching every abrasive particle, there's a good chance the oil pump screen will plug up, and starve the engine anyway. I wouldn't give you a 10% chance that you'll be successful trying that scenario.

On a Trans Am, if the car sat outside, the hole in the hood will let water run down onto the valley cover where it pools, and will eventually rust a hole through the valley pan, letting water run into the oil pan. I've seen two Trans Ams with rust holes in the valley pans that were left outside for extended periods from rain water.

In the end it's your car, and your choice, you have to make the call.

[JLBIII]

Years ago I used kerosene to flush out a Triumph motorcycle engine that had been sitting awhile. It also had a 6 volt system. Flush worked well and got the engine running again. It was still running when I sold it later on back then. Probably better products out there today.

[1969GiPper]

Just curious is this engine a 400 Pontiac or a 403 Oldsmobile?

[77 TRASHCAN]

Diesel or kerosene is a great solvent. Pour a gallon in it, and wait a few days. I work on school buses. I have a small pump up sprayer I use to decrease spots on engines that get slimed, works great!!!

I have seen first hand how usedotor oil can coagulate in an oil pan or in large truck oil drain pan. The oil pan has a perforated top (with dime sized holes in it)for the oil to drain into. The shop where I used to work, used this one and only drain pan with a pump in it to evacuate it.

The pan stopped functioning one day, so I took the top off and hand dipped the waste oil out, until nearly empty.

There were clumps of coagulation oil in the bottom of the pan as big as charcoal briquettes, and larger!!!

I know how important oil changes are. It sure made an impression on me. Being diesel engine oil likely made the situation worse.

I have seen negative things concerning crankcase flushes. Diesel or kerosene is all I'd use. You may want to do it more than once, wouldn't cost that much. Even with current high cost of diesel!!!

I was wondering about which make of engine, also!¡

[1965gp]

These are all great points. I will say that the process I suggested I have only used on cars indoors.

Sirrotica is spot on- I changed the oil in my can am that sat outside for years and 8 quarts of water came out! Antifreeze was green, water that came out of the engine was clear. The pcv valve was either not in place or the grommet corroded, can’t remember.

[turbo69bird]

Use a can 1 gallon of WD40 to flush it don’t start it just pour it in and let it sit. I just cleaned out a stick transmission this way last week . I tried everything castrol super clean, lestoil , a bunch of degreasers . Stuff was still caked up in there it had sat for 30 years.
I had that black sludge on my hands was into my skin . Sprayed some wd 40 on it like I had a 1000 times to clean my hands and bam it ran right off . So I sprayed it in the trans and it immediately loosened up everything
I was amazed at how good it worked inside the trans. . I mean nothing else was even touching it. I’d say diesel woukd do the same but idk this wd cut through this stuff so fast I think I’d go with that .

[77 TRASHCAN]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

Use a can 1 gallon of WD40 to flush it don’t start it just pour it in and let it sit. I just cleaned out a stick transmission this way last week . I tried everything castrol super clean, lestoil , a bunch of degreasers . Stuff was still caked up in there it had sat for 30 years.
I had that black sludge on my hands was into my skin . Sprayed some wd 40 on it like I had a 1000 times to clean my hands and bam it ran right off . So I sprayed it in the trans and it immediately loosened up everything
I was amazed at how good it worked inside the trans. . I mean nothing else was even touching it. I’d say diesel woukd do the same but idk this wd cut through this stuff so fast I think I’d go with that .

I use WD40 in the shop where I work for initial hand cleaning also, when I get slimed.
I bought a medium can of WD40 yesterday. It was ,$10.00 plus tax.
WD40 works the same as diesel does for me. Diesel is cheaper, even with its currently sky rocketing price!!!