[77 TRASHCAN]

I am a member of a Chevy pickup website also. 67-72 Chevy trucks.com

This question was asked there, some time back. They have a huge membership (not bragging...)
A member there worked in a drive train shop. This was only a year or two ago.
His recommendation for brand of gear set was Motive Gear. He said that Richmond and other American made brands were too hard. He'd had trouble with many of the go-to brands we've all heard about since the 60's. Motive Gear is imported. He got flamed over that fact. He was just answering some simple question about "gears"...

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran

After watching this YouTube video I may do this job myself. First I will correct the pinion depth and shim the carrier to spec. If it still makes noise, I will buy a new set of gears and install them. This is a great video on how to set up a 12 bolt rear end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRWhDRIaR6w

Nicely done video. I'm impressed with his method of determining pinion depth. Yes, you might as well try to salvage your "50-mile new" gears.

My only real complaints are
1. He brutalizes that poor torque wrench getting the yoke-nut in place--it clicks at whatever torque it's set at, and then he jerks EVEN HARDER on it.

2. I'd be triple-checking the backlash and preload of the carrier. He's pretty cavalier about both.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

I am a member of a Chevy pickup website also. 67-72 Chevy trucks.com

This question was asked there, some time back. They have a huge membership (not bragging...)
A member there worked in a drive train shop. This was only a year or two ago.
His recommendation for brand of gear set was Motive Gear. He said that Richmond and other American made brands were too hard. He'd had trouble with many of the go-to brands we've all heard about since the 60's. Motive Gear is imported. He got flamed over that fact. He was just answering some simple question about "gears"...

I've heard that argument both ways. Some will say the Motive is too soft, sort of like the pro gear from Richmond.

I've used all those brands over the years and have never had any issue with any of them at all. But I have had a few people I've done work for absolutely insist they don't want a Motive because of the reported softer metal.

I can say for sure that our local driveline shop that's been in business 50 years and does all the off road desert racing and baja trucks as well as serving the classic car community, he prefers nothing but US Gear. I've used their stuff as well on his recommendation and again, no issues.

For certain, setup is key, and I've seen too many back yard mechanics tackle this job only to have poor results, then blame the gear set.

[Tom Vaught]

Not a Differential Expert or how to set one up. Have most experience with the 9" Ford Rears from Sterling Axle (Ford).
US Gear is a good brand and no issues there either.
Eaton made gears for GM for many years.

That being said, Drag Racing puts very high loads on the parts that you would not see in other forms of racing, as many know.

I went to the Ford 9" rear many many years ago after destroying 3 GM 8.2 rears under my 64 GTO. Street Car playing on the blacktop.

So I totally agree with Formulajones that the application makes a big difference in the durability as well as the PROPER SET-UP of the parts.

At one time Ford had all of the racing venues covered with Gear Ratios from Sterling Axle and the Ford Motorsports Catalog.

Generic Statements don't really go far in my book. Application is everything.

Tom V.

[Tim Corcoran]

"Application is everything" My drag car has a spool and 3.73 Richmond street gears. I pulled the 12 bolt housing out of a 65 Chevelle 4 door with a small block (hard to believe) at the pick a parts yard back in 1995. I had a shop in California do the installation, I think it was Currie. I ran this on the street for several years (yes with a spool) and the car eventually became a low 10 second track only drag car. Thousands of street miles and many hundred 1/4 miles runs. I did break an axle (with slicks) at the track when it was still a street/strip car doing 11's then, I upgraded to Moser 30 spline steel axles. I mention this because the Ford 9 inch is not the only thing that is strong. The 12 bolt has proven it's self for me over the years and this is with an OEM housing and the tubes have never been welded. I'm still running this 12 bolt today and all I have done since 1995 is upgrade the axles and install a cover plate that loads the bearing caps.

My current application is going to be street duty with an occasional test at the track to see how fast or slow it is. But I can't live with noisy gears.

[Tim Corcoran]

I haven't checked the back lash or pinion depth yet. Waiting on a new magnetic base for my dial indicator to come in. I don't have any marking paint but put some lithium grease on to look at the tooth pattern. It's not very clear but the pattern looks a little off to me. It looks like the contact area is covering the whole tooth. Take a look and tell me what you think.

[Cardo]

That contact pattern on the second pic especially looks too low - towards the center of the axle. I agree with you on the full contact look in the first picture. From what i've read when I was looking for gears, Motive is the quietest and that's what I went with. No noise out of mine. They are made in Italy, not sure why people have a beef with that. I would think if you reset those with that low of mileage, you could still save them. Also - I am definitely not a differential expert. But I have looked over the shoulder of a couple!

[chiefbigb]

Run it through with marking compound. Resistance on the ring gear turning the yoke to look at the drive side. Resistance on the yoke turning the ring gear for coast side pattern. It does look backlash has to be correct every time you check patterns

[chiefbigb]

Meant to state the pattern looks long root to tip but with incorrect backlash the pattern means very little

[Tim Corcoran]

I will get correct marking compound, check and/or reset the backlash and check pattern again, then send more pics.

[chiefbigb]

I have probably 100 small packs so if you can't get any I will send you some

[Tim Corcoran]

Originally Posted by chiefbigb

I have probably 100 small packs so if you can't get any I will send you some

Thanks, I found some at the local auto parts house

[Tim Corcoran]

Backlash is .008, take a look at the pattern and tell me what you think. Thanks

[Tim Corcoran]

I was looking at some charts with examples of proper and improper patterns, and I think the pattern on my gears looks correct. Of course I am not experienced in this area. If the pattern is an indication that the pinion is correct and my pattern is good then why would I have the noise?

[Formulajones]

I mentioned earlier, the pattern is sort of a last check to see if it "looks" okay. It's not a tell all or certainly not a final say. The naked eye isn't going to detect that the pinion depth could be off .005" or even .020" with a grease pattern. You can be off several thou on settings, have a noisy gear set, and never see that on a gear pattern check.

What has to happen before the pattern is checked is setting up pinion depth and back lash correctly, and as I mentioned, most don't have or use a pinion depth gauge (the good ones are $500 or more) and it's critical to get pinion depth spot on, and that measurement is generally scribed right on the face of the pinion gear. Once pinion depth and back lash are set correctly, only then will I even bother looking at a pattern, but the pattern won't sway me from the gauge settings.



Those gears, most of them I've done anyway, are already lapped in at the pinion depth and back lash settings that come with that gear set.

[Tim Corcoran]

Thanks, I appreciate all the replies. I am looking at the number scribed on the pinion gear (see photo) and I don't get it. It says 102, what the heck does this mean? I know the pinion depth should be roughly around 2.7 inches so does anyone know how I get to the actual pinion depth from the 102 marked on the pinion?

Has anyone ever used one of these?

https://ratechmfg.com/pop_up_order%2010005.htm

[Tim Corcoran]

I've decided to replace the gears in my 12 bolt. I have no idea what the pinion depth is supposed to be because it is not marked on the pinion. US Gear used to be made in the United States but they were bought out by Meritor and they dropped the ring and pinion line. Any US gear sets you may find were produced a few years back and are still on the shelf. Motive and Richmond are both made in the same factory in Italy, and owned by the same parent company. Most of the other ring and pinion sets are made in either China or India. Motive doesn't make a 3.08 so I ended up ordering a Richmond set from a company by the name of Quick Performance. The guy at Quick Performance said that most of the companies still making ring and pinion sets for the aftermarket don't put a specified pinion depth on the gear like in years past and it's left up to the installer to get it right based on his experience and looking at the pattern. I don't know how true that is but that would explain why it's not marked on the set in my car.

[abefromen]

A little gear set info cut and pasted from another forum............



"I spent 20 years in the gear industry, with Yukon/Randy's, Superior Axle & Revolution Gear, so I understand how and who makes gears for different manufactures. I'll try and give you some insight into each if the main "Brands"

Most "Manufacturers" aren't manufacturers at all, most are "re-boxers" or buy directly from the factory that makes them, and just puts them in their box. You will find that VERY few of the popular brands own a single gear cutting machine.
Some people & installers have a problem with this, but that's just the reality of the gear & axle industry and there is no way to avoid it if you are buying and/or installing any volume of gears.
The reason for re-boxing is a good one... it's impossible for ANY manufacturer to make every ratio for every application so they back fill with gears from other "manufacturers". In this day and age of people expecting to be able to "One Stop Shop" this is kind of a must to keep customers coming back.


OEM Dana:
Many believe that Dana Gears are all made in the USA but the fact is, they are made allover the world. Dana makes very few gears in the US any more, most are made in South America but they also use Some China and a couple other countries. The quality is top notch and almost always will set up using the factory shim that you take out.

SVL Dana:
Made in India, but the quality is good, but often the surface finish looks less than perfect but they will still setup well and run trouble free for years.

Yukon / Owned Randy's World Wide
Yukon is a huge mix of gears made in all corners of the world. Early on, the quality was very up and down because they had no in house quality control and just filled the box with what ever they could get their hands on. That has drastically changed over the years and they now spend a lot of time and money making sure, if it come in a Yukon box it's worth a ****! They now have a whole department that only does "QA" on every product as it comes in the door.

USA Standard / Owned Randy's World Wide
This is Randy's "Economy" brand and is made up of a wide verity of gears. Very often the gears in a USA Standard box are the very same as what is in the Yukon box of the same part. The reason for this is because when you are buying 15,000 gear sets a month, it's no cheaper to buy a crappy gear than it is buy a good one so why create the headache of buying the same gear from multiple sources. The reason this brand exists to offer an option to bottom feeder customers that only car about price rather than quality or warranty. Randy's also fills this brand to sell off gears that don't quite make the grade for the Yukon brand, so you can't always be sure that it will be the same as what's in the Yukon box.

Revolution Gear
Revolution is a very consistent brand because they ONLY use gears made in Korea and Korean gears have always been known in the aftermarket as being high quality with rare exception. Because Revolution only uses Korean gears they have holes in the application and ratio offering but manage to offer most of the popular applications. They offer a select group of "2 Cut" Gears that are super nice and are guaranteed to be quiet.

US Gear
USG has notoriously made good gears, the only real drawback with them is lack of depth, back orders and high price. But if you want a good gear and you have doubts or concerns with other brands, or if you just like to buy made in the USA, USG is the way to go.... if you can get them.

Motive Gear / Richmond Gear / Owned By Midwest Truck
This is by far the most complex group of gear brands out there. Motive Does "Red Box" "Blue Box" "Black Box" all under the Motive brand. I can't speak to where all of their gears come from but I do know that they come from all over the world. "Red Box" Gears is their top quality/High Performance line, "Blue Box" Is their more general purpose line and the "Black Box" is economy line. I have used all three and have found all to setup well and run quiet, even including the "Black Box". Like Yukon they have a strong QA department that makes them very consistent.
Midwest Truck is the company that owns Motive and Richmond Gear. They bought Richmond back in late 2005 and killed the US made "Yellow Box" gears. They still offer the "Yellow Box" and the quality is still good, they just aren't made in the US anymore. I know they use a manufacturer out of Italy for a lot of them but I'm not sure where they are all coming from. In my experience it appears that the Yellow Box Richmond seem to be the same gears as the Red Box Motive but I haven't used enough to say that is an absolute.

AAM (American Axle Manufacturing)
Mostly the OEM supplier to GM and for Dodge 3/4 & 1 Ton truck axles, but also sell a lot into the aftermarket. Most AAM gears are made in India & South America but they do still have a very small number of gears made here in the US. Quality is always very good and price is reasonable on most of their stuff considering it's coming from an OEM supplier. They offer very little that fits the "Off Road" market.

Nitro/ Owned By Just Differentials
They are much like Yukon in the fact that they re-box a fair amount and buy from manufacturers in India, China and some Korea. They don't have the quality control that Yukon or Motive do, but seem to have okay quality as far as I can tell but I have to admit I have only used their Toyota gears. The main portion of my knowledge of their quality comes from my knowledge of who they buy from and where they by them.

The reality is that for 99.999% of the world the brand of the gear you buy will make little to no difference and the failure rate is very similar across all the brands. 99% of gear failures and gears that have noise after setup are the fault of the mechanic not the gear itself. Most of the mechanics in the world have ZERO gear setup experience, (regardless of what that tell you) just because they are good mechanic doesn't mean you should set up a gears. You will find that most mechanics that say they can setup gears, when pressed have acutely setup very few."

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran

The guy at Quick Performance said that most of the companies still making ring and pinion sets for the aftermarket don't put a specified pinion depth on the gear like in years past and it's left up to the installer to get it right based on his experience and looking at the pattern. I don't know how true that is but that would explain why it's not marked on the set in my car.

LOL yeah that's not going to cut it. They have to have a pinion depth either in the instruction sheet or marked on the face of the pinion. You can't get it spot on just looking at the pattern. If that's what is relied on then you're going to find a whole bunch of brand new noisy gear sets, just like the one you have.

I'll give you a head start. When I'm setting up a 12 bolt I find that on the first try with the pinion I'll start with .030" of shim. This generally gets me in the ball park plus or minus a few thou. But it's going to take a pinion depth gauge to check it and set it where the manufacture states, and if it doesn't state it anywhere in the box or on the pinion, I'd be sending the gear set back because that's just completely unacceptable to me. They lap the gears in, they know where they want that pinion set. Sounds to me they are just trying to wash their hands and remove any liability from the numerous install mistakes and come backs blaming the gears.

[Tim Corcoran]

[QUOTE=abefromen;6464356]A little gear set info cut and pasted from another forum............

If you are suggesting that my post was a cut and paste from another forum you're wrong. I got that information from a tech at Meritor, the company that bought US Gear and discontinued the product line, and from Mike at Quick Performance. Mike is the one that told me that many of the gear sets now days do not include pinion depth. This was backed up by the guy that set my noisy gears up. I talked to him this morning and he also said that many of the gears coming out do not include a pinon depth.