[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Aaron Quinton

Stan,

You can't let data get in the way of board politics can you?

A full blown canted valve billet head modeled after a DRCE head is a no compromise solution. The bore centers driving the intake valve size are the limiting factors and the ability to rev the engine for an NA configuration. An engine this size in an optimized NA configuration should be capable of hitting 1300 hp with this type of head. That's 2.4 hp per CID. A friends small block bracket engine is pulling 2.55 hp / CID running used canted valve parts from the last decade. It's all about intake valve size and the reciprocating mass that limits RPM along with controlling valvetrain dynamics. We need to look outside of the Pontiac world to look at current capabilities, engines are just air pumps.

Inline Pontiac heads right now have hit 2.2 hp / CID with castings NA with a single 4. A no compromise billet should be capable of more with evenly spaced intake and exhaust ports. The ability to jump the header starting pipe 20% in area without paired exh ports is worth a ton and a second carb at least 50 hp.

This is a nitrous engine I hear. So it has the chambers softened to reduce hot spots to control detonation. That's a slight drop in compression. It will also have a cam optimized for N2O due to a 50% increase in mass flow over NA even though "nitrous cams" don't exist. So in nitrous trim it's going to be down 10-15% hp as compared to an optimized NA engine.

So back to politics, look at how the expectations are set. If it's someone else's engine you set the expectations through the moon and when they don't achieve they are idiots. If it's your engine set the expectations so low you trip over it, over achieve and you're the genious hero.

Back to task, Kinsler's right, 1120-1150 hp should be reasonable for a N20 engine configuration. But this in the internet so I'm still an idiot.

The bottom line is the car will be a rocket and well done to Jack for pulling it together. Good luck running it. I'm out.

Aaron

Aaron,
Lets just say it would be very interesting if someone built an all-out N/A Pontiac engine using those heads.

Stan

[johnta1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike leech
I agree stan, it would go from so bad it wasn't even funny, pass that all the way back to where it was funny again, I'd beat you that bad.

Stan, he has to argue opinions because he can't argue facts.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Stan, he has to argue opinions because he can't argue facts.

making more power than you guys is a fact. A cave man could do that.

[GTO Dan]

Originally Posted by john marcella

The only thing that matters is how it stacks up in the class that it is raced in. While it may be a killer motor for the Pont group, it ,at the same time may be sub par junk compared to the stuff that it is in the class he races in. For his sake I hope it does well in the class, cuz it sucks when you have a good motor that you have a lot of $/ time in and you feel that no matter what you do you will always be behind.
Good luck Jack.

I don't know John. I hear what Your saying and mean but don't discount the old Pontiac. I believe a Pontiac won in NMCA Pro Stock and in Ultra at Battle of the States this past weekend and I think I read somewhere that a Pontiac was the first Ultra car into the 4s with N2O.


Not dogging you, just saying.

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

NHRA Pro Stock 500 ci - 1480 HP - 2.96 HP per ci

Australian Pro Stock 400 ci - 1180 HP - 2.95 HP per ci

Lil Jack 541 ci - 1300 HP - 2.403 HP per ci
- - - - 541 ci - 1100 HP - 2.033 HP per ci

Stan

You can't be that stupid to compare my motor to a Pro Stock operation that spends about two million dollars a year and have been doing it for decades.

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by GTO Dan

I don't know John. I hear what Your saying and mean but don't discount the old Pontiac. I believe a Pontiac won in NMCA Pro Stock and in Ultra at Battle of the States this past weekend and I think I read somewhere that a Pontiac was the first Ultra car into the 4s with N2O.


Not dogging you, just saying.

QFT!

In my class there are a lot of 632s with sheet metal intakes and two fours with two systems.

They usually run 4.70s-5.30s so we should be right in the mix this year hopefully.

[GTO Dan]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

You can't be that stupid to compare my motor to a Pro Stock operation that spends about two million dollars a year and have been doing it for decades.

If you are being compared to Pro Stock, that is one of the highest compliments Stan can pay you.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by LiL Jack

You can't be that stupid to compare my motor to a Pro Stock operation that spends about two million dollars a year and have been doing it for decades.

Lil Jack,
Let's compare a 541 ci engine to a Pro Stock.

► 541 * 2.95 = 1595.95 HP

Stan

[goatracer]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

NHRA Pro Stock 500 ci - 1480 HP - 2.96 HP per ci

Australian Pro Stock 400 ci - 1180 HP - 2.95 HP per ci

Lil Jack 541 ci - 1300 HP - 2.403 HP per ci
- - - - 541 ci - 1100 HP - 2.033 HP per ci

Stan

You can keep posting Pro Stock and Australian HP numbers all you want. I think you and Aaron are setting an unreasonably high standard for any Pontiac platform with only a 4.375'ish bore and a heavy 4.5" crank.
I could see it making 1100hp on motor, but idk, Jack hasn't posting anything about the combo besides cubic inch and heads, nor has he made any predictions. I'll stick my neck out and say it will surely make more than 966hp.

JMO,
Bryan

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by goatracer

You can keep posting Pro Stock and Australian HP numbers all you want. I think you and Aaron are setting an unreasonably high standard for any Pontiac platform with only a 4.375'ish bore and a heavy 4.5" crank.
I could see it making 1100hp on motor, but idk, Jack hasn't posting anything about the combo besides cubic inch and heads, nor has he made any predictions. I'll stick my neck out and say it will surely make more than 966hp.

JMO,
Bryan

Bryan,
We are in total agreement. Based on what you have said, and for other reasons there is no way in the world that a Pontiac engine can make close to Pro Stock HP per ci numbers at this size. You said Pro Stock and I posted numbers which showed that even with Aaron's and my high number we were not close to Pro Stock numbers.

Stan

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Bryan,
We are in total agreement. Based on what you have said, and for other reasons there is no way in the world that a Pontiac engine can make close to Pro Stock HP per ci numbers at this size. You said Pro Stock and I posted numbers which showed that even with Aaron's and my high number we were not close to Pro Stock numbers.

Stan

So basically you were just throwing around numbers like leaves in the wind that really means nothing at the end of the day. Sounds like some cylinder head power projections from the past that never came about either.

We strategize in the beginning of the program, then we build some actual hardware, test the crap out of it for a couple of years, make changes, test the crap out of it again and then release the product.

The difference between our Ford Research deal and your deal Stan is you haven't got past the second step or really even started the second step). You are a couple of thousand test hours behind on your program. At some point you have to get away from the calculator and "PULL A LEECH" and test something. JMO

Tom Vaught

ps There is a Pontiac Racer (named Chris Piper) who works in our Research Lab who does the dyno job daily. (He will tell you I speak truth, Kemosabe)

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

So basically you were just throwing around numbers like leaves in the wind that really means nothing at the end of the day. Sounds like some cylinder head power projections from the past that never came about either.

We strategize in the beginning of the program, then we build some actual hardware, test the crap out of it for a couple of years, make changes, test the crap out of it again and then release the product.

The difference between our Ford Research deal and your deal Stan is you haven't got past the second step or really even started the second step). You are a couple of thousand test hours behind on your program. At some point you have to get away from the calculator and "PULL A LEECH" and test something. JMO

Tom Vaught

ps There is a Pontiac Racer (named Chris Piper) who works in our Research Lab who does the dyno job daily. (He will tell you I speak truth, Kemosabe)

Tom,
Just numbers would they be? That a canter valve head on 4.625" bore sizing block @ 541 ci should make 1300 HP with a tunnel ram and a carbs. I wonder what Visner would thinking it could make?

Stan

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Stan, he has to argue opinions because he can't argue facts.

How much has a Warp 6 motor made?

Never mind I saw on KREs website there max effort 535 made 1104 HP and 823 torque with a sheet metal and two dominators. And they have had them a couple years.

Hmmmm

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Tom,
Just numbers would they be? That a canter valve head on 4.625" bore sizing block @ 541 ci should make 1300 HP with a tunnel ram and a carbs. I wonder what Visner would thinking it could make?

Stan

Why can KRE only make 1104 HP with there 535 with a sheet metal and a pair of dominators?

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

So basically you were just throwing around numbers like leaves in the wind that really means nothing at the end of the day. Sounds like some cylinder head power projections from the past that never came about either.

We strategize in the beginning of the program, then we build some actual hardware, test the crap out of it for a couple of years, make changes, test the crap out of it again and then release the product.

The difference between our Ford Research deal and your deal Stan is you haven't got past the second step or really even started the second step). You are a couple of thousand test hours behind on your program. At some point you have to get away from the calculator and "PULL A LEECH" and test something. JMO

Tom Vaught

ps There is a Pontiac Racer (named Chris Piper) who works in our Research Lab who does the dyno job daily. (He will tell you I speak truth, Kemosabe)

I've met Chris, and know his brother dave. the pipers are good peeps....

[johnta1]

Lil Jack spewed:

Never mind I saw on KREs website there max effort 535 made 1104 HP and 823 torque with a sheet metal and two dominators. And they have had them a couple years.

Should have quoted the website?
Kauffman site:

Out of the box heads make 1104 HP and 823 Tq on a 535 CID engine

That was from 2011.
Mark ran 7.25 @ 189 MPH

He ran 7.16 @ 199 MPH a year later (2012)

How much more power do you think he was making in a years time?
(more than 1100 I guarantee you, probably over 1200 HP)

Who knows what they are making now.

One other thing, they don't have a lot of time to develop their own program, so I would say they would not be a good example for maximum power.
Probably others have done better.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Lil Jack spewed:



Should have quoted the website?
Kauffman site:


That was from 2011.
Mark ran 7.25 @ 189 MPH

He ran 7.16 @ 199 MPH a year later (2012)

How much more power do you think he was making in a years time?
(more than 1100 I guarantee you, probably over 1200 HP)

Who knows what they are making now.

One other thing, they don't have a lot of time to develop their own program, so I would say they would not be a good example for maximum power.
Probably others have done better.

Get me the weight of that car and we can tell you how much lol! you're right who knows?

[J.C.you]

Who has the fastest calculator?

[Tom Vaught]

Mike, never met Dave but Chris is much like Mike McCarty, the salt of the earth in the Pontiac community.

Tom V.

[Jim Zeek]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Lil Jack spewed:



Should have quoted the website?
Kauffman site:


That was from 2011.
Mark ran 7.25 @ 189 MPH

He ran 7.16 @ 199 MPH a year later (2012)

How much more power do you think he was making in a years time?
(more than 1100 I guarantee you, probably over 1200 HP)



Who knows what they are making now.

One other thing, they don't have a lot of time to develop their own program, so I would say they would not be a good example for maximum power.
Probably others have done better.

what does it weigh and why won't you buy an IA2 block?