[thirdgen455]

I know that right now I could not afford them, but by the time they came out I would be able afford them. I have always wanted a set of V heads, and made from alum would be great. I also know my friend Rodney has been wanting a set since he drove Rons V headed 455 GTO from (Rons Pontiac in Sherman TX) he kicks himself everyday for not forking out the money Ron wanted for the heads and stuff back then. I know he would be willing to buy a set. he don't post here but you can add him as a yes I would buy them.

[Dragncar]

Les where has it ben proved that Pontiac people would not spend 800 on a forged crank.I know that I would have two hanging out in my garage it that were the case.But if the Tiger head becomes a reality and does do a very efficent 475+ cfm the market to support both heads would be the issue.

[Les Apt]

dragncar:

i seen a post ahwile back, where there was a forged crank on ebay and steve barkak made a post here about it. that crank sat their for a week on ebay and if i recall, steve barkak was the only guy on py who was interested at $800 dollars. do u remember that? also, i seen a post by rompin63 where he's salling a 455 forged crank and he had to nearly beg peeps here to buy it for $1200 dollars. this is where its proved!!!

[Tom McQueen]

Just for the record, Im the one who bought the forged 455 crank from rompin63, and he never once begged me to buy it.

[Brian Baker]

I know a guy that was wanting to buy that $1200 crank for his funny car project, but the seller never replied to his email. The guy had to learn from a 3rd party that it had already been sold, and after said guy made a statement to a 4th party about not getting a reply email telling him it was sold before learning about it from the 3rd party, the seller finally sent a reply email the very next day saying it was sold. Real f@$king courteous, eh?

[Les Apt]

i did not litrally mean 'beg.'

i meant that it was for sell for a week at 1500 dollars and not until it was reduced did anybody bite.

of course, $1500 dollars was really close to a new moldex price so i am not suprised that it did not sale at that price.

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Bob,

Appreciate your comments.

Stock heads I think you are very correct.

A properly ported head, we found that push rod did not effect overall cylinder head flow.

Our modified heads with the pushrod tubes in or out made no difference in flow.

Why? Because you find while porting where in the port it flows most of its air. Flow velocity isnt uniform.

Les,

Yes I did ask for all comments. It contributes towards a healthy debate.

I believe the RA-V solves some of the problems associated with going to the larger cubic inches. We need to take the next step. I dont see any normally aspirated Pontiac guys making 1400HP without nitrous on 500 cubic inches. Until we do that, no need to go higher.

We have to be upwards of 2.5 Hp per cubic inch to match the Chevy guys. This means we are maxed out about 425 inches? Otherwise you are just lowering your RPM of output by increasing displacement.

So where do you start?

The only way for us to go higher is to go with the RA-V style head or a splayed valve head.

The pushrod area, and the valve spacing is what limits us on the traditional Pontiac cylinder head design. Every cylinder head design has its weaknesses, and its positives.

This is definitely an "out of the box" conversation.

Lynn

[tom s]

Les,your idea of close must be a lot diff. than mine.I think a moldex billet is around $2400 now.$900 would pay for a new set of custom pistons!Tom

[Les Apt]

tom that is true but it is not enough of a difference to justify picking a 30 year old forging over a brand new billet cut to ur specs.

ur 2400 dollar quote is way high from what i have heard from moldex. the fact that the forging on hear did not sale for $1500 dollars is proof that folks must have not have seen enuff of a value over the billett that i said.

u may have a nice set of $900 dollar custom pistons tom but u still have an inferior crank if u sprung for the $1500 dollar forging instead of the billett crank.

[Les Apt]

lynn,

again, what advantage is there for u to use a tunnelport head that nobody uses instead of a rectangular port that everybody uses??

and how will ur tunnelport head compare to the dci head that they said will flow 475??

i suppose question 1 would answer question two. sorry.

[uneasyrider]

I'm totally lost on this so don't let me stop the flow with stupid questions...

When you guys are talking about a RAV head are you talking about building a copy of the original or a new tech version you might say? If it's the original head design I had heard that they came with sodium cooled valves back then and if they did will those still be kept? I would love to build an old school spec Poncho for a drag car and RAV's would be a cool addition.

If I'm getting to far in left field just tell me to STFU and get back to your conversation. LOL!

[Mr_GTO]

I think if you design it to be an all out head with modern technology incorporated into it and keep the cost under $2500. The port velocity hurt that head. It would be great for blower applications.

Then you need an intake for it. An EFI application would be neat too.

Then at the exhaust side you would need to improve and modernize the exhaust ports. Then headers would be needed.

Lots of investment needed.

[Les Apt]

uneasyride:

lynn seems to be talking about a head just like the RAV head. again, i can not see a $2500 dollar head that flows and produces the same power as an $8,000 alan johnson chevy prostock head.

but like any bidness plan, this one has to include a design with a market that will demand it. i just don't see it as having one. i'd like to hear more about lynns ideas because i have been known to be wrong!!

[uneasyrider]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Les Apt:
uneasyride:

lynn seems to be talking about a head just like the RAV head... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, for me it would be a nostalgia thing. I would like to build one as close as the rules will allow to an original. It's just something I always wanted to do is all.

Uneasyrider

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Les Apt:
lynn,

again, what advantage is there for u to use a tunnelport head that nobody uses instead of a rectangular port that everybody uses??

Cross Sectional area to eliminate CHOKE. A major factor in achieving HP in higher cubic inch engines. I have posted the approximate calculation several times.

and how will ur tunnelport head compare to the dci head that they said will flow 475??

Bob's heads look very promising. I am in no way trying to infringe on his success. I will support him 100%.

We are looking into areas where an inline cylinder head has scientific restrictions.

Remember that flow doesnt always mean horsepower. There are several areas of flow in a cylinder head that actually reduce HP.

At 475cfm, then it should produce 1140 horsepower with the proper componets. I hope he is successful. Like I said, I will be one of his biggest supporters.

i suppose question 1 would answer question two. sorry. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Les Apt]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lynn McCarty:Cross Sectional area to eliminate CHOKE. A major factor in achieving HP in higher cubic inch engines. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

cross sectional area = port size; larger port size= more airflow = more horsepower at a higher rpm.

how does using a round intake port eliminate choke any better than using a rectangular port does? translation: u didn't answer my question about why you feel a tunnel port should be used. especially since no other pro stock or big inch IHRA wedge head motor uses one....

[R 70 Judge]

Personally I'd like to see reproduction type stuff for the RA V.

I think it would be pretty cool to be able get the heads, intake, and exhaust manifolds at a reasonable price. I think being able to build RA V engine and drop it into a Judge or TA and hit the streets the way Pontiac intended would be great.

[Brian Baker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Les Apt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lynn McCarty:Cross Sectional area to eliminate CHOKE. A major factor in achieving HP in higher cubic inch engines. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

cross sectional area = port size; larger port size= more airflow = more horsepower at a higher rpm.

how does using a round intake port eliminate choke any better than using a rectangular port does? translation: u didn't answer my question about why you feel a tunnel port should be used. especially since no other pro stock or big inch IHRA wedge head motor uses one.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My guess would be the limited bore spacing of a Pontiac as compared to your typical BBC Pro Stock block (which by the way, they have a wider bore spacing than the OEM BBC block does). And those IHRA motors have even more bore spacing.

Nonetheless, what about a head with a R.A. V layout with rectangular shaped intake runners instead of oval? Could work better, even with the pushrod in the center of the port? I remember a time before the BBC aftermarket boomed when factory iron oval and rectangular port heads were the only choices, and it seem more power was made with the rectangular port heads, no? Keefer can you weigh in on this?

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Lynn. I.R. are the only way to go. Whether 30 year old technology or new technology. Just needs to be brought into the 21 century.

If you can get Any Pontiac head that bolts to a Pontiac block to flow 450/475 cfm plus with an As cast intake to support the head. I think a lot of people would be interested.

At this level of specialize parts. Money is never the Major issue.

But if the AllPontiac head, and not trying to start a Pi$$in contest, but <span class="ev_code_RED">If</span> after R & d as I'm reportedly told has the capability to flow over 450 and up to 475.

And another Pontiac head hit's the market with the same potential or less ......... is there a purpose or market with a return on the investment?

Just asking.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Need to clarify. As we all know flow figures between ports would be with-in closer %'s with an I.R. head.
But can big #'s be had with standard location ports. 99% of the big Hp per cu.in. engine combos are based on a High Port I.R. head design.

So how close would the original RA V head be to the old one and still show those hp #'s we would need to justify the cost.