[gtofreek]

I think the clearance between the lifter, and the lifter bore could have something to do with it. The engine I'm dealing with now has less than .002", so not enough volume to keep it filled.

The oil band doesn't always have to be in the oil hole, just needs to be aligned at the critical time, when it's on the base circle.

[LMSRACER]

Originally Posted by tom s

I run 400 lobe lift with no problem also.We run 150 on the seats with 10-30 Mobil 1.Tom

Tom,
Upon closer inspection of the Block that I'm currently working with I found that the Oil Supply Hole in the Lifter Bore is in different Locations for just about every Lifter Bore. The Block is an Original 1967 GTO 400 Block.
The Hole Location Differs by as much as 0.070". The Lifter Bores with the Lowest Oil Supply Hole (Relative to the Top of the Lifter Bore) are Actually Supplying Oil to the Lifter 100% of the Time, while the Others are Definitely Not.

Another thing to Consider is the Duration of the Camshaft that's being used.
Here's what I mean......
Let's say that the Camshaft is 282* Duration @0.006" 230* Duration @ 0.050" and 151* @0.200". Now let's look at how far the Lifter has to travel up the Lifter Bore before the Oil Hole in the Lifter is Supplied Oil. In my case the worst one is about 0.060".
That means that until the Cam Lobe has Achieved 0.061" of Lobe Lift there is Little to No Oil Supply to the Lifter. Therefore with the Cam Lobe in this Example that would mean that for Approximately 220* of Crankshaft Duration or 110* of Camshaft Duration there IS Oil Supply.
That Equates to 30.55% of the Time. 69.45% of the Time there is No or Very Little Oil Supply to the Lifter.

O.K., so what that all means is that as the Camshaft Duration Increases, the Amount of Time that the Lifter would Receive an Oil Supply would Also Increase. Consequently, as the Duration Decreases, the Amount of Time that the Lifter would Receive Oil Supply would Also Decrease.

These are the Reasons why I believe that some Engines are Noisy and Some Engines are Not.

Thanks for Listening....

Larry S.

[wheneaglesfly]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

I think the clearance between the lifter, and the lifter bore could have something to do with it. The engine I'm dealing with now has less than .002", so not enough volume to keep it filled.

The oil band doesn't always have to be in the oil hole, just needs to be aligned at the critical time, when it's on the base circle.

You were talking about Olds V8 engines here a day or 2 ago.
How the Lifter bores are set up to supply oil to the Hydr lifters and feed timing..
I have 2. 403's here & 1. Olds 455 block.
1 403 & 455 are bare blocks with cranks in them.
I will take a look today.
I recall they had an oblong. oil feed holes.
Much larger than Pontiac V8.

I saved a few sets if original of Pontiac 455 lifters circ 1971 just for future reference .

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I heard that the Crane HYD roller lifters are US made, and don't have the 'noisy' issue. But they are considerably more expensive.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cr...w/make/pontiac
.

From the above link.
~" These lifters are available in an OE version, and in a retrofit version for vehicles without OE hydraulic roller lifters"~

Surely that was just a generic description of Crane hyd rollers. Or did 307 Olds stay in production long enough to get factory roller cams

[wheneaglesfly]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

From the above link.
~" These lifters are available in an OE version, and in a retrofit version for vehicles without OE hydraulic roller lifters"~

Surely that was just a generic description of Crane hyd rollers. Or did 307 Olds stay in production long enough to get factory roller cams

Yes. Up till 1987. Some say 1988 too.

1987 Olds 307 had factory Hydraulic roller cam & Lifters.

1st year for the Corvette to receive the Hyd. Roller cam too.

[71 T/A]

Originally Posted by i82much

http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/techDoc/PontLifters.pdf

Butler shows the difference between Chevy and Pontiac lifters but sells Lunati, Comp and Johnson HR lifters patterned after Chevy lifters. They don't have much choice but still maybe they could contract with a lifter company and get true Pontiac HR lifters produced. If Butler was the only supplier of true Pontiac HR lifters, they'd sell a lot of them.

[wheneaglesfly]

Originally Posted by 71 T/A

Butler shows the difference between Chevy and Pontiac lifters but sells Lunati, Comp and Johnson HR lifters patterned after Chevy lifters. They don't have much choice but still maybe they could contract with a lifter company and get true Pontiac HR lifters produced. If Butler was the only supplier of true Pontiac HR lifters, they'd sell a lot of them.

Things got really screwed up bad with the Recession 2007-08 & still lingering present.
Crane had problems and corrupt buyouts.
Hostile takeovers
Crane made for GM OEM. LS & V8 of past.

Contracts of 100,000 minimum required .

[wheneaglesfly]

Machine tolerance on Hyd lifters for GM Pontiac V8 were held down to 1-2 microns.
Millionths of an inch.

[wheneaglesfly]

Checked 403 & 455 Olds V8 blocks.
Lifter feed holes are larger than Pontiac V8.
Because its Rifle drilled at an angle.
39 degree lifter bank angles used.

65 Olds 425 is 45 degree lifter bank angle as all Pontiac V8.

Photos later.
Have to go.
Work to do today.
Street Race Turbo car.

[TCSGTO]

Can anyone check the feed holes in an aftermarket block? I've seen written where they can accept Chevy or Pontiac lifters.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by wheneaglesfly

You were talking about Olds V8 engines here a day or 2 ago.
How the Lifter bores are set up to supply oil to the Hydr lifters and feed timing..
I have 2. 403's here & 1. Olds 455 block.
1 403 & 455 are bare blocks with cranks in them.
I will take a look today.
I recall they had an oblong. oil feed holes.
Much larger than Pontiac V8.

I saved a few sets if original of Pontiac 455 lifters circ 1971 just for future reference .

Think that was me who commented on Olds engines.

I think the Olds OE HYD roller lifters were a different diameter than the original .842 diameter like in in earlier Olds & Pontiacs. Maybe .921 or .924? Don't recall off the top of my head. Pretty sure the Olds OE HYD roller lifters didn't use a link bar, they use a groove for tracking.

I've heard of folks converting to OE Chevy HYD rollers in some makes, but they suffer the same tolerance issues, hence, are noisy too.

I think the critical dimension for feed holes is the distance from the base circle to the bottom of the hole, not the relationship of the hole to top (or bottom) of the bore itself.

The issue with using Chevy lifters is that the oil band on the lifter drops out of the bore, and not only can loose psi, but can catch on the bore too.

.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by TCSGTO

Can anyone check the feed holes in an aftermarket block? I've seen written where they can accept Chevy or Pontiac lifters.

Think because there's enough meat to open the bores up, and/or use bore bushings, so you could pretty much put them where you want them. Or could be the bore extends longer at the bottom, and prevents the band from dropping out.

.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Think because there's enough meat to open the bores up, and/or use bore bushings, so you could pretty much put them where you want them. Or could be the bore extends longer at the bottom, and prevents the band from dropping out.

.

I think it is the latter, I seem to recall going through this issue before on some Isky solid roller lifters.

Still can't understand how many people say they are perfectly happy with their hydraulic roller engines if they are not being oiled properly. It would seem like every Pontiac hydraulic roller engine would end in disaster within the first 10k miles or so.

[wheneaglesfly]

Originally Posted by i82much

I think it is the latter, I seem to recall going through this issue before on some Isky solid roller lifters.

Still can't understand how many people say they are perfectly happy with their hydraulic roller engines if they are not being oiled properly. It would seem like every Pontiac hydraulic roller engine would end in disaster within the first 10k miles or so.

20 Years ago it was Bone Stock Restorations.
Pro Touring was just invented by a Guy with a 1987 Buick Grand National unhappy with the Worlds Fastest Street Car Shootout Drag Race Scene.
Pontiac Guys built unlimited with Factory parts & Newly relwased E heads & Wenzler.
Rebuild every 1-2 years.

[wheneaglesfly]

Rebuilt often to keep a Razor Edge.

[JLMounce]

I guess my question here is does this also effect the HFT lifters on the market? I've not yet selected a cam and this may sway me in one direction or the other.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by wheneaglesfly

20 Years ago it was Bone Stock Restorations.
Pro Touring was just invented by a Guy with a 1987 Buick Grand National unhappy with the Worlds Fastest Street Car Shootout Drag Race Scene.
Pontiac Guys built unlimited with Factory parts & Newly relwased E heads & Wenzler.
Rebuild every 1-2 years.

Eh, I dunno. I've read plenty of threads with guys saying their hydraulic roller engines have been together for years. Did every one of those guys catch this issue and modify their lifters, or is there another explanation?

[71 T/A]

Originally Posted by i82much

Eh, I dunno. I've read plenty of threads with guys saying their hydraulic roller engines have been together for years. Did every one of those guys catch this issue and modify their lifters, or is there another explanation?

My 72 Formula has had Comps since 2010 and is quiet. My 69 GTO has had Lunatis less than a year and is noisy. Both have Stump Puller HR cams. That sums it up.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by 71 T/A

My 72 Formula has had Comps since 2010 and is quiet. My 69 GTO has had Lunatis less than a year and is noisy. Both have Stump Puller HR cams. That sums it up.

Does the 72 get much use? I would really like to spend less time working on my car (or, worse yet, paying other people to work on it) and more time driving it.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

I guess my question here is does this also effect the HFT lifters on the market? I've not yet selected a cam and this may sway me in one direction or the other.

No.