[jakeshoe]

I've taken a liking to the Hughes pan for the 200-4R. I had a cheaper option but had to clearance the pan to make it fit, the Hughes is a nice heavy piece and less than $200 shipped.
It takes care of the fluid pickup problems.

[jakeshoe]

EDIT:
My prices have come back down on the aluminum pans. They are the same pan as the Art Carr but without the logo.
I am going to make an order for pans later this afternoon, if anybody is interested in them let me know and I'll add them to the order.
The last two that I used did require clearancing slightly around the lockup solenoid with a die grinder burr.
No big deal but my pricing had gone up to near the Hughes pan so it wasn't worth the trouble.
These pans use a 700-R4 filter, that I can provide, and they come without fasteners, that I can also provide.
The pans by themselves are $140, with a filter, gasket, and fasteners they would be $160 plus shipping. If I can get several people who want them I can save on the shipping and further reduce them.
I'm ordering a stock of TH350 and Th400 pans today, same deal as these. Deep aluminum finned cast pans.

[smdellin]

Originally Posted by jakeshoe

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/tra...ing-2004r.html

Here's the article I've mentioned, it will give a good baseline.

Brian Hofer is one of the good builders as I previously mentioned.

I would have been extremely surprised to see the trans go boom that fast. What brand was the current converter that gave up?

The stock GN converter is a decent little piece behind a stout but mild street motor. That is what I ran behind my 427 BBC until I broke a flexplate and then took out the converter hub and pump.

It was an Art Carr out of Texas, I guess there have been some issues with these.

[jakeshoe]

The original Art Carr was an innovator of the 200-4R but I'm not sure what he does for the billet pieces. He runs California Performance Transmission now, CPT.

The Art Carr in Texas....
Overpriced and not that great of quality control from what I understand. I doubt they use billet pieces either.

[smdellin]

Overkillphil

I'm running essentially the same vehical, 73 Formula, but with high compression heads, 274 cam and 1.65 rollers.

Appreciate the feedback. I think I'm safe to move forward until down the road when I build the stroker.

I was wondering about my 3.42 gears, it sounds like yours are a perfect fit so I'll stick with mine also.

[smdellin]

Jakeshoe

Thanks for all the help, your information is priceless.

I'm not ready to get starter on the 2004r just yet, but when I am I'll contact you to see what parts you have.

Can you or would you be willing to do valve body work if I sent it to you when I'm ready?

[jakeshoe]

Just give me a call when you get ready. I can get any parts you need as well as do the VB work.

Jake

[Region Warrior]

Originally Posted by jakeshoe

The original Art Carr was an innovator of the 200-4R but I'm not sure what he does for the billet pieces. He runs California Performance Transmission now, CPT.

The Art Carr in Texas....
Overpriced and not that great of quality control from what I understand. I doubt they use billet pieces either.

The 700-4R(700hp rated) i have used "molded on" seals on the pistons. One rolled over twice. Took out the 3.4 pack both times.
Changed to seperate piston and seal. Problem fixed.
It does have billet servo and govnor covers.

I'll check and see what type cover is on my 200-R4.
What depth do you rec?
And do you know what stall Pontiac used on the 89 TA turbo cars?

[Overkillphil]

Yes, the 3.42 gear with the 200-4R is a real nice combo with typical street tires on these cars. I would probably go with 3.73's if I were running taller tires or slicks. The final drive in 4th gear works out to a 2.29 rear gear!

Jake, I like the Hughes pan also, but currently have purchased one of the custom pans from Bruce in Ca. along with his fabbed up filter pickup kit.

I'll see how it does and may go for the Hughes pan on the GTO when it's turn comes up.

Also, as a footnote, it has been about 10 years since I had the Art Carr trans problem, but the place I dealt with was in Nevada at the time. I do not believe it was the original Art Carr and have no idea if it was affiliated with the one in Tx. FWIW.

[jakeshoe]

A 700 HP rated 700-R4 <Jake laughing>

The molded steels usually work great and prevent a cracked forward piston problem that sometimes happens on the 4L60s. Couple of ways to take care of it, but I like the molded pistons and haven't had issue with them.

Maybe they had a bad one, or let it soak in solvent, etc.

I'm not sure of the history of the Art Carr place other than Art sold the name years ago and the current place is in Texas. Not sure if it was in NV or if Art himself was.

[Cliff R]

Jake, keep in mind that the power rating of these transmissions is typically from those charging BIG bucks for them!

200's and 700's are complex transmissions, with a LOT of parts jammed into a small case. This makes for quite a few points to fail, or parts to break, since the size of the parts in comprismised due to the size and weight of the unit. They still hold up remarkably well, for what they are.

I've never seen or heard of a seal failure on a 700-4R, 4L60 or 4L60E when the molded pistons were used. Keep in mind that the molded pistons are steel, and only have one path for fluid leakage, compared to two paths with the aluminum pistons. The seals are also much harder and more durable on the molded pistons.

The biggest sore spot of the 700/4L60's are the 3-4 clutch, 2-4 band, and the input shaft in the aluminum input drum deal. When a 700 comes in that didn't experience hard part breakage, it's almost always lost the 3-4 clutch.

I actually like the 4L60's and 200's, I consider them excellent choices for street driven vehicles, that will see occassional drag strip use. As mentioned earlier, I flogged on one for 35,000 street miles, zero issues anyplace. For anything that will see frequent drag racing, with good traction, and big power, you are simply looking at the wrong transmissions, and plan on getting a second mortgage to get one strong enough to hold up for a while......FWIW.....Cliff

[jakeshoe]

Cliff,
I agree but you and I both know the things just will not take 700 HP. MAYBE if put together right they would last 10-15 runs MAYBE.

I agree at 700 HP, if an OD is mandatory the customer should be looking at a 4L80E or TH400 with GV.

The 700 HP ratings are inflated IMO, and the price is too to go along with it.

The failure points you listed are absolutely correct. I haven't seen much issue with the band going to the wide band and good servos but the 3-4's and the input shaft... at 700 HP they are toast.

[Region Warrior]

Agree, no way it would handle 600 let alone 700.
Wanted to get the trans back in that night, and only had a stock piston availible.
Didnt figure out why the seal failed. Faulty installation twice in a roll?

[jakeshoe]

Maybe excess clearance causing to overtravel and come out of the bore?

The molded pistons work great, I use them on the 4L80Es, 700's etc. I haven't seen any issues with them. Maybe you got a bad one or batch?

[Cliff R]

I would guess over-travel. It's good idea to use compressed air and engage the 3-4 clutch several times, especially with the high capacity packs with thin steels/frictions. They will give a false reading for clearance, and the apply piston will have to travel WAY too far to effectivley compress the clutch pack. Applying the pack with compressed air give a much better indication as to how far the apply piston is really moving to do it's job. There is also very generous chamfer at the top of the seal drum where the out seal moves, if you get anywhere near that chamfer it's going to blow out/roll over the seal lip.

I don't use or recomend the high capacity 3-4 clutchpacks, we've had the best success with the latest design as used in the 4L60E units in the mid to late 90's......Cliff

[jakeshoe]

I use a 8 clutch setup using the Hi-Energy frictions and thick steels. It seems to work very well. I have one behind a 502 Ramjet for about a yr now, maybe longer.

The stock clutch doesn't have enough area IMO, so you need to add to the count, but there is a limit to what you can do, and you MUST keep the steels thick. I mix the .095 and .106" to get what I need.

[smdellin]

Just an update on my buddies 2004r, I guess the converter break down was violent enough to also take out the crank thrust bearing in the motor. He's not having fun right now, motor has less than 500 miles on it.

Just got back from the NMCA racing in Milan, MI. We raced in the True Steet, missed the win by 2/10s of a second. It was a blast.

[Cliff R]

"I use a 8 clutch setup using the Hi-Energy frictions and thick steels. It seems to work very well. I have one behind a 502 Ramjet for about a yr now, maybe longer."

The thick steels are important in the 3-4 pack, as is the thick/solid apply plate instead of the multiple peice deal.

We've had good success with high capacity set-ups, but the steels will show hot spots when you pull them back down, simply because they don't hold their shape on apply. The factory figured this out, after about 15 years, and finally stiffened up the entire deal and went to thick steels, fricitons (high energy), and the molden steel apply piston.

We haven't had any failures to date with the latest designs, and have quite a few of them in service, clear up to about 500hp, and a couple if pretty HD towing applications. If the 3-4 can hold in a towing application, with GVW's over 12,000 lbs, it should be good enough for a 3500lb car with a 500hp engine, at least one would think so?.....Cliff

[hurryinhoosier62]

Cliff R and jakeshoe,
I considered both the 200R4 and the 700R4 for my Cat. After pricing all the mods needed, I concluded that I am going the TH400/GV route unless Steve Snyder just
happens to have a 4-speed Hydromatic laying around the shop. I just have to find
someone familiar with that tranny.

[mike nixon]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Cliff R and jakeshoe,
I considered both the 200R4 and the 700R4 for my Cat. After pricing all the mods needed, I concluded that I am going the TH400/GV route unless Steve Snyder just
happens to have a 4-speed Hydromatic laying around the shop. I just have to find
someone familiar with that tranny.

I've got a guy up here who can build that for you. He may not like it but he can build it.

Best trannie guy I've ever met, I send all of my work to him.

Let me know if you want his info.

Mike