[Cliff R]

"Many builders used to convert the trans to non-lockup because the converter technology wasn't there to support the power, and because they couldn't get the trans to live with the converter locking."

This is NOT the case here, never has been. The TCC is retained in all cases if the vehicle came with an OD trans to start with, and all of the associated parts to effectively operate the TCC were still in place and operational.

Having owned and driven several vehicles retrofitted with OD transmissions, my opinion. If the drivetrain components are well chosen, ie, effective gear ratio for the vehicle weight, power, etc, using a TCC becomes an option. This also assumes that you are hiring a good company to build your converter, and it provides efficient characteristics, decent flash stall, combined with effecient light/part throttle and very well coupled above the stall speed.

We never allow TCC operation before OD, if/when it is used in retrofits. This is easily accomplished by using a Normally Open 4th gear pressure switch as a ground, and routing the voltage thru a vacuum switch, then the TCC solenoid. The vacuum switch hooked to ported vacuum will provide near perfect TCC function, as it will unlock when coasting, and at any heavy/full throttle operation. Basically, it will only lock-up at light part throttle in OD.

As good as this scenario sounds, when actually driving the vehicle, it is beneficial in many driving situations to have a slight amount of torque multiplication in OD. This avoids having to downshift, and/or unlock the TCC, lug the engine, etc. After logging many thousands of miles with them hooked up each way on several vehicles, my preference is not to use a TCC. While I'm at this, the WORST condition for the TCC, is to be moving along in traffic on secondary roads at 40-60 mph, on and off the throttle, speeding up and slowing down, the TCC will be in-out, in-out a zillion times and drive you absolutely NUTS. If direct wired it will lug the engine to death. This is when most drivers select the toggle switch mode and take it out until they get on the highway and back to steady speeds.

I just got a call recently, from a friend mentioned above who chose the TCC route, and isn't liking it much. He simply finds too many driving situations where the trans either has to come out of OD, or the TCC switched off to avoid "lugging" the engine. His unit, nearly as I can remember is set-up with direct wiring to the 4th gear pressure switch with a toggle switch to unlock in manually if/when needed.

The last arguement for using the TCC is to avoid transmission overheating, which is utter non-sense, and it goes right back to correctly selecting your OD and other drivetrain components in the first place. We ran our Impala SS over 35,000 without any cooler other than the one in the radiator. We simply used 3.31 gears, and a custom converter designed for this purpose. It was actually "tighter" than the custom L/U converter it replaced (before the TCC came on), and fuel milage, or difference of was barely noticable between the two converters. Just some additional information to help folks choose which way to set these transmissions up for older vehicles......Cliff

[jakeshoe]

I'm not saying it's the case in your situation however IMO there are few places where you would use an OD trans and not want the lockup.

In your friends case, he needs to wire in the vacuum switch. Also if the trans has had the checkball removed from the input shaft for firmer lockup, re-install it on the next freshen.

The vacuum switch makes a lot of difference in the driveability, you can get adjustable ones so that they unlock sooner. You can also use a delay in the circuit, so it doesn't immediately lock, it waits a couple of seconds.

It is a good idea to look at the strategy that the OEMs used in the 80s for lockup and mimic it closely.

Some of the GN guys have gotten away from using lockup on the really fast 200-4R equipped cars. PTC has developed converters that have around 3-4% slip at WOT and the cars are running 9's, some may be in the 8's now.

[jakeshoe]

On the issue of trans overheating...

IF the trans is setup for lockup, it MUST be used in 4th gear on the 200 and 700. Otherwise there is a reduction of lube flow that will cause trans failure on long highway runs.

This is taken care of with the non-lockup conversion but just a sidenote.

[jimmy daniel]

Keep it going. This is great stuff.

[Cliff R]

Jakeshoe, just a few more points, then I'll sit down and leave this thread alone.

We don't typically use the TCC, as mentioned. If/when it is used, it is ALWAYS set up for complete automatic function routed through a vacuum switch. This is an important point, because we continue to see most shops, even those who are supposed to be the very best in this game, set up the TCC for manual control and/or wired directly to a 4th gear pressure switch. It is NOT wise in my opinion to add anything "manual" to the list of things to do when operating a vehicle in todays driving situations. Drivers are distracted enough with cell phones, texting, smoking, eating, drinking, listening to tunes, and avoiding others who aren't paying full attention to the road. There is nothing worse than having to look down and engage/disengage another switch to unlock a TCC during a light throttle move to pass another car where we didn't intend on downshifting, etc.

Wiring the TCC directly will lug the engine and can/will overwork the clutch.

I hope I'm not coming across as beating a dead horse here. We get boat loads of complaints from folks who have went the OD route and are using the TCC, and many have bought custom non-L/U converters from us and the part for the pump to convert them to non-L/U. Not the first complaint one to date, matter of fact, just the opposite in almost every case.

We ALWAYS use the best converters in the industry with just a couple percent slippage above the stall speed, and very efficient characteristics below the stall speed. (This is THE key to success when the TCC is not used) If you try to save funds, and go out and buy a cheap converter, you will NOT be happy in any area with your new and expensive OD transmission.

Have tried/used the adj vacuum switches in conjunction with TCC's, never really all that fond of them, but they work OK. There is NO way around the locking in and out, in and out, in and out when driving in relatively heavy traffic at moderate speeds, annoying to say the least.

We have set-up several strong running GN's with non L/U converters....they LOVE them.

Yes, we use the non-L/U valve and remove the check ball from the input shaft.

I have been at this game a while, since the very first OD units went in place in the early 1980's. If I did my math right, I've been at the transmission game at least 33 years.

Sure, you can give me a lesson here and there with lube oil flow, and a few of the latest "trick" parts, but we've rung these units out in nearly every conceivable application, and our opinions are formed from those results.

Keep up the good work, I really love hearing about all the latest and greatest components and modifications to make these little transmission hold up to big power.

BTW, just talked to my friend again today, he got his "bulletproof" 200 back again, 2nd or 3rd time it's been out, he's hoping it fairs better this time around?....and yes, it was built by the folks who say they will live behind 1000hp Vipers and such......FWIW......Cliff

[Blue '66]

Man,lots of good info to sift thru Cliff and Jake.I will be looking you up Jake early next year for a 200r4 when I get further along on my body off restoration on my '66 GTO.I will be having a new .60 over 400 built pushing about 400-425 hp.Your about 5 hours from me.

Cliff on another thread you talked about the stall speed could be higher than the cruising RPM if a tight converter is used.Is that true for 200r4s also?

Does the L/U work better or worse on a 400 hp motor vs a 600 hp?

[Blue '66]

Also saw the term multi-disc converters on the Turbo Buick site.Can you explain that type and when they need to be used?

[jakeshoe]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Jakeshoe, just a few more points, then I'll sit down and leave this thread alone.

We don't typically use the TCC, as mentioned. If/when it is used, it is ALWAYS set up for complete automatic function routed through a vacuum switch. This is an important point, because we continue to see most shops, even those who are supposed to be the very best in this game, set up the TCC for manual control and/or wired directly to a 4th gear pressure switch. It is NOT wise in my opinion to add anything "manual" to the list of things to do when operating a vehicle in todays driving situations. Drivers are distracted enough with cell phones, texting, smoking, eating, drinking, listening to tunes, and avoiding others who aren't paying full attention to the road. There is nothing worse than having to look down and engage/disengage another switch to unlock a TCC during a light throttle move to pass another car where we didn't intend on downshifting, etc.

Wiring the TCC directly will lug the engine and can/will overwork the clutch.

I hope I'm not coming across as beating a dead horse here. We get boat loads of complaints from folks who have went the OD route and are using the TCC, and many have bought custom non-L/U converters from us and the part for the pump to convert them to non-L/U. Not the first complaint one to date, matter of fact, just the opposite in almost every case.

We ALWAYS use the best converters in the industry with just a couple percent slippage above the stall speed, and very efficient characteristics below the stall speed. (This is THE key to success when the TCC is not used) If you try to save funds, and go out and buy a cheap converter, you will NOT be happy in any area with your new and expensive OD transmission.

Have tried/used the adj vacuum switches in conjunction with TCC's, never really all that fond of them, but they work OK. There is NO way around the locking in and out, in and out, in and out when driving in relatively heavy traffic at moderate speeds, annoying to say the least.

We have set-up several strong running GN's with non L/U converters....they LOVE them.

Yes, we use the non-L/U valve and remove the check ball from the input shaft.

I have been at this game a while, since the very first OD units went in place in the early 1980's. If I did my math right, I've been at the transmission game at least 33 years.

Sure, you can give me a lesson here and there with lube oil flow, and a few of the latest "trick" parts, but we've rung these units out in nearly every conceivable application, and our opinions are formed from those results.

Keep up the good work, I really love hearing about all the latest and greatest components and modifications to make these little transmission hold up to big power.

BTW, just talked to my friend again today, he got his "bulletproof" 200 back again, 2nd or 3rd time it's been out, he's hoping it fairs better this time around?....and yes, it was built by the folks who say they will live behind 1000hp Vipers and such......FWIW......Cliff

Cliff,
I'm not here to try and discredit you. It's obvious we have some differences in opinion on some of the specifics but would probably agree on much of it too.

I don't build transmissions for run of the mill applications. I do build a few for pretty mild stuff like a Chevy 350 in a early 70s Nova for pretty much highway use. Nothing fancy there really, a near stock 700, and it was chosen because I had it immediately available over a 200-4R, which would have been fine in near stock build also. 350 HP max on that combo and relatively light.

The factory converters lock in and out, some of the trick there is to not leave the checkball out on a mild lockup application. Some builders leave it out for a firmer lockup and that can be annoying.

Another really good way to run the lockup is the speed based controllers such as the B&M piece. Runs off the speedo and locks the converter based on a preset speed. Somewhat spendy but oftentimes worth it. You can also still go through the vacuum switch, but if you set the speed at 65-70 mph, you aren't going to have much shuttling of the converter going on.
I plan to use one of these controllers to shift the GV on my Chevelle.

PM the builder of the unit your friend is having problems with.

I'm not here advocating 1000 HP wit the 200-4R. They WILL handle 800 HP/TQ with all the billet stuff but IMO at that level the 4L80E is the better unit without a doubt.
The 200-4R will be a "maintenance item" at 800 HP. It will usually not suffer hard parts failures with the billet stuff, but you are at the limit of the 3rd gear clutches again.

I would not put a 200-4R in a Viper...Nor behind a 1000 HP. Most of the noted 200-4R builders agree that the limit is about 800 HP and I would agree. The direct clutches could probably handle 1000 HP on a limited basis with the dual feed and 300-320 psi line ( I usually run 250-270), but the planets would start having issues. Just not enough contact area.

They are tough little units BUT they have to be done right. I'm curious who sold one claiming 1000 HP...

Most of the good builders of the 200-4R aren't "big name" like TCI, BTO, etc. They are guys who developed the parts and stayed with the program.

Much of the advantage of the 200 is also power flow, you would understand it, but it is getting pretty complex for an internet discussion without a prerequisite class on compound planetary function. But look at the what happens to the planets on the 700 in OD.
A 700 uses two sets of planetaries to achieve 4 forward ranges, a 200-4R (and a 4L80E) uses 3 sets of planetaries. The 200 rear geartrain thinks it is 3rd gear in OD, the 700 is doing something altogether different, and this is why the lube flow is critical on the 700.

Cliff,
Send me the info on the 200 and what the failures have been.

[jakeshoe]

Originally Posted by Blue '66

Also saw the term multi-disc converters on the Turbo Buick site.Can you explain that type and when they need to be used?

All the stock lockups that I know of (at least in domestic passenger vehicles) use a sngle friction disc for lockup.
The milti-disc units are like a multi-disc manual trans clutch setup, they have 3 or 5 discs with pressure plates between them.

This goes back to the same thing I spoke of on the earlier post. More friction area.

[Cliff R]

"Cliff,
I'm not here to try and discredit you. It's obvious we have some differences in opinion on some of the specifics but would probably agree on much of it too."

Never thought you were, your posts are full of good information, and unlike some who visit here, you don't get caught up in all that bickering nonesense simply when someone doesn't agree with you. There are many ways to do many things associated with this hobby. We stick to topics that we have vast direct experiences with, which usually keeps us out of trouble!

Anyhow, it is simply important for folks to know that you can set these units up to "plug and play", no wiring, switches, etc, required. If you use good parts, and a good builder, there are no negatives anyplace from setting up an OD transmission with a non-L/U converter.

We've sat back and listened to tons of nonesense about overheating, loss of efficiency, etc, etc. Then we get PM's from folks who have went the L/U route that are NOT very happy with it.

My opinion, set it up to work like the factory did, or go non-L/U. If you use L/U, be fully aware that it will clunk in and out of L/U at moderate speeds in traffic, slowing down/speeding up, etc. If you are direct wired at any point, there will be driving situations where you will end up throwing the toggle switch to keep the TCC off. Pretty much as simple as that. Basically, there are few things in this world that are perfect!.......Cliff

[Overkillphil]

Speaking of lockups, I have experimented with locking up the trans in 2nd gear but the shifts become too violent. I know some Buick GN guys that swear by it, but in our cars, the rears felt like they were going to be torn out! NO THANKS. And that's coming from someone who has always liked my trannys to provide an authoritative firm/hard shift.

Locking up prior to 3rd gear seems like alot of risk to put on the line for a miniscule amount of potential quarter mile improvement.

[Half-Inch Stud]

""""""pretty complex for an internet discussion without a prerequisite class on compound planetary function""""""

Well, on that subject, I had planned to make an OD kit for TH400s (a finished symphony, but unfunded) I tell ya my HEAD HURT each time I went to figure on rotating directions. I did come up with a plan-view drawn-to-scale of an internal OD-on-demand Kit for within the TH400, but it needs MINOR investment to make a kit or 2, then investment to make it happen as a product. I will stand by it for making/providing OD and retain R,3,2,1, and sustain 60foots. Every bit of TH400 strength retained too, equally strong perhaps stronger. PM if interested.

[jakeshoe]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"Cliff,
I'm not here to try and discredit you. It's obvious we have some differences in opinion on some of the specifics but would probably agree on much of it too."

Never thought you were, your posts are full of good information, and unlike some who visit here, you don't get caught up in all that bickering nonesense simply when someone doesn't agree with you. There are many ways to do many things associated with this hobby. We stick to topics that we have vast direct experiences with, which usually keeps us out of trouble!

I'm definitely not going to argue Q-jets with you, other than the fact they are one of the best streetable carbs out there, and I've spent my fair share of time tinkering with them I don't have the experience you do. I'll probably aggravate you in the future for some pointers when my Chevelle is roadworthy again. I let my Dad get away with my "good" one, so I'll have to build another one when the time comes.

[jakeshoe]

Originally Posted by Overkillphil

Speaking of lockups, I have experimented with locking up the trans in 2nd gear but the shifts become too violent. I know some Buick GN guys that swear by it, but in our cars, the rears felt like they were going to be torn out! NO THANKS. And that's coming from someone who has always liked my trannys to provide an authoritative firm/hard shift.

Locking up prior to 3rd gear seems like alot of risk to put on the line for a miniscule amount of potential quarter mile improvement.

I agree,
Locking 2nd gear wouldn't be worth it. The main advantage I see to locking it up while drag racing, would be to increase MPH and slightly (maybe) increase ET with locking it in 3rd gear only.
Most cars would still need the torque multiplication in 2nd gear IMO, and would ET better unlocked in 2nd. Obviously it's one of those situations where "it depends". Combo dependent.
I would think that unless you had ALOT of power (or a really sloppy converter), the torque multiplication would be more beneficial.
Maybe a really light combo with moderate power would work OK locking in 2nd and 3rd.
Although the turbo factor does change it a bit, because the turbos like to be "loaded".


As I stated in a previous post, the really fast GN guys are using more and more of the PTC converters. I thought it was pretty neat because I've been recommending the PTC's for a while based on personal experience with them when another converter company dropped the ball on me.
They seemed to be the best "bang for the buck" converter out there to me. PTC was founded by some of the original TCI guys before Bill Taylor sold the name. When he did so, they left and formed their own converter company. Kenny Ford being the main one.
He KNOWS his stuff. He's been building converters for a long time.
They weren't really big on the radar for awhile, kind of a local phenomenon I guess. However they are getting some recognition for their really efficient converters with the GN crowd.
I may try one on a 4L80E project in the future.

I've also mentioned Edge. Seems to be along the same lines.

Neither company is a "budget" converter company but both seem to be really competitive for the quality they sell, and both seem to do whatever it takes to make you happy.

But on the topic of locking up in 2nd,
the 2-3 shift on a 200-4R is one of the roughest on parts, and the 3-4 can be brutal on the 200-4R too because the calibration gets very firm very quick with mods and a 3 clutch OD setup. (Same deal on the 4L80E, I usually don't even drill the 4th feed hole on them anymore).
The 200-4R in my Chevelle would sometimes chirp the tires on a WOT 3-4 shift At 110-115 mph...
I had to back off the hole sizing and accumulator mods.

[jakeshoe]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

""""""pretty complex for an internet discussion without a prerequisite class on compound planetary function""""""

Well, on that subject, I had planned to make an OD kit for TH400s (a finished symphony, but unfunded) I tell ya my HEAD HURT each time I went to figure on rotating directions. I did come up with a plan-view drawn-to-scale of an internal OD-on-demand Kit for within the TH400, but it needs MINOR investment to make a kit or 2, then investment to make it happen as a product. I will stand by it for making/providing OD and retain R,3,2,1, and sustain 60foots. Every bit of TH400 strength retained too, equally strong perhaps stronger. PM if interested.

I would be interested in seeing what you have.
I've pondered the feasability of taking the entire OD section out of a 4L80E and using it to make a Gear Vendors type bolt on rear OD unit.
Tie into the line pressure port on the trans to operate it, electrically operated solenoid like used on an internal trans-brake, and voila, you could have OD.
Just have to make the input/output shafts, and a case.

One of the drawbacks of the 200-4R and 4L80E as opposed to say a 700-R4, or TH400/GV, or Chrysler trans, is that the OD unit is contained in the transmission, and for it to function, the powerflow of the trans is the same as a regular 3 speed.
Once it shifts to 3rd and the rear geartrain is locked into direct drive, then the OD unit is in FRONT of the entire rotating mass of the trans. So on a 3-4 shift, the entire rotating mass (as well as driveline mass) must spin up to match the OD output.

On a 700-R4, the planetaries go out of direct drive and the sun gear disengages from the forward clutches. The 700 planets are essentially TH350 parts with different gearing. However the front planet has the ability to disengage the sun gear from the forward clutches and this is what allows OD. Changing the way they are driven.
So there is less rotating mass that changes on a 3-4 upshift on the 700 than a 200 or 4L80E. However we aren't usually racing at WOT on the 3-4 upshift.
This also necessitates the forward sprag in the 700/4L60Es and although they are adequate, you must be very careful not to do a 4-3 downshift under hard decel, because it WILL roll that small sprag.
The other issue with making OD happen on a compound planetary set in this manner is lube becomes critical.

You are overdriving (centrifugal force making the lube exhaust faster) the rear planet carrier and you have a set of planets that are running loaded, quite a distance from where the lube is pressurized in the circuit, and in say a TH350 in 3rd, those planets are locked. So only the output carrier to case really needs lube in 3rd. On a 700 it needs plenty of lube in 4th. Worn out bushings, inoperative lockup, and other issues can lead to failure of the planets. They also have a too small torrington bearing back there.

The 4 pinion planets on a 700 aren't an issue really, the need for 5 pinion planets has been way overemphasized by the aftermarket (probably in an attempt to make more $$$).
The need for good lube to the planets whether they are 4 or 5 pinion is paramount.

But back to the main point of the post,
A GV on the back of a TH400 only has to OD the driveline mass, not the internals of the trans also.

So the 4L80E has an entire geartrain of a TH400 spinning at 4000 rpm when the input shaft it at 3000 rpm, whereas the TH400/GV has the TH400 internals at 3000 rpm still (same as engine/input shaft).

[Blue '66]

Jake,what kind of slippage do you see from PTC converters?

Cliff, what kind of slippage do you see from the Continental "tight" converters?

[jakeshoe]

The really fast GN guys are datalogging 3-5% slippage across the traps.

Pay attention here...
They are datalogging using a speed sensor. They aren't figuring slippage by a glimpse at the tach across the traps compared to the trap speed on the slip.

The only true way to determine slippage is with a speed sensor on the driveshaft/output shaft and comparing to the engine rpm at the same time.

We are also talking about 9 second doorslammers, with that kind of slippage. Pretty amazing to me.

[Cliff R]

We are seeing about 200 rpm slippage in high gear at the finish line. Basically the converter is locked nearly solid above the stall speed.

Don't forget about the efficiency below the stall speed. The Continental 10" unit we use drives and acts much like a stock converter. You can't get the brakes to hold the tires past about 1800rpm's, and it doesn't "flash" up when driving around at light/part throttle.

On the starting line mine flashes to right at 3500rpm's. Most report about 3200-3300rpm's behind 455 engines, and 2800-3000 rpm's behind 400 engines.

Got a call yesterday from a customer who went the 200-4R route, and bought a custom 10" non-L/U Continental converter from us. His car is 455 powered, runs low 11's and he is very happy with the converter on the street and at the track. He also monitors his transmission temps, and sees no indications anyplace that the converter heats up the fluid for "normal" driving.......Cliff

[455Grandville]

Can someone tell me the ratios on a 200R4 tranny ? Is there any weak points I should upgrade it to even with a stock application when I have it rebuillt ?

[Overkillphil]

2.74, 1.57, 1.1, 0.67

Depends on what the trans is out of originally. 86-up are the best ones, needing the least upgrades with a stock engine. But even with a stock engine, I would do some std. upgrades like valve body kit, hardened stator (mandatory in my book), GN or billet servo. If you are lucky enough to have a unit out of a GN, GNX or Turbo T/A you can drop it in with just a hardened stator and go.