[440GP69]

use the dci graphite rope seal, p-dude recomended it with aftermarket cranks in another post a while back.

[blown 68]

Originally Posted by 440GP69

use the dci graphite rope seal, p-dude recomended it with aftermarket cranks in another post a while back.

i've already got it. machinist wanted to use the bop.......

wouldn't happen to know that post would ya?


d

[gto65lvr]

They do make a handy little tool to change a rope seal without pulling the crank out...wonder how successful one could be doing that though?

[blown 68]

i disconnected the torque converter, so the engine was running free of anything, and i put a very sensitive magnahelic on the dipstick tube. the whole purpose was to eliminate everything possible, to prove to my machinist that it is not the tranny, the blower, or blowby......

with the car warmed up, i disconnected the converter, squirted a little oil up there, so it wasn't riding the snout dry in the crank. brought her up to 3000RPM's, and there was absolutely no blowby, and the thing started gushin' a plenty.....

so, i will talk to the machinist tomorrow, confirm my results with him, and go from there. i think we should just part ways at this point, after settling up unfinished money matters...

i am pretty sure i am just going to yank this thing, and do the pan removal, crank removal, and install the graphite rope seal, button her back up, and see what we get. if it is dry, then i will be happy, and it will confirm my belief about the bop just not sealing well on what appears to be my two different cranks/caps/blocks. i will document with photo's where the seal rides, hell, i have three cranks to do it with, eagle, ohio, and a factory, to share with you all. i already did this once with the eagle and a factory crank, and it showed clearly that the lip rode on the slinger grooves on the eagle, but cleared them on the factory.

if it still leaks? well, then i am an idiot for not being able to figure this mess out.....

here are my pics from my old eagle and a factory........



davey

[Big Injun]

Davey...the graphite rope seal is going to do it! No one should endure this much pain. Everyone I have talked to has nothing but glowing reviews about them!

[blown 68]

alrighty. the machinist and i have parted ways for now, i have informed him that i am taking it down, looked at everything, measured everything, and figured out what is what, and we will go from there settling up wise. he has offered any help from here on if i ask for it.........

my uncle had a very lengthy talk with wade at BOP, i guess he has been following my trials and tribulations here, and was one of the most helpful, professional, and giving vendors we have ever dealt with, PERIOD.

he is just as confused as we are, he knows my machinist, and one of his heavy pontiac clients to boot.....

he had some very interesting information to share, some that i have not heard of, or known about. he talked about all the motors that have worked with it, regardless of crank, how it was originally designed, many of the different configurations it has been used, etc....he said he has also heard of some issues with the larger main engines, and has heard of symptoms similar to mine to as well, and was impressed with all of our effort to try and remedy it.

he mentioned that their molds for the large main seals was actually wearing out, and they have completely re-designed the large main seal, based on certain pontiac loyals input. it now has bop written on it, a 'flywheel side' label, and is of a more tolerant nature, clearance/crush wise, amongst other details i cannot remember at this moment. great news, always room for improvement in this field. he was so gracious as to send us one of the brand new seals free of charge, for us to inspect, compare, use if we like, which i thought was pretty darn cool.

so, when the motor comes out, i am going to be working with/sharing all of my information with him, so we can both learn from this episode of personal hell of mine. i am going to be documenting every step of this with pics, dialogue, measurements, you name it. i am sending it all to him, posting it here, and hopefully coming to some conclusions/solutions.

hopefully very soon, i will have it out, and apart, and get to the bottom of this. for now, i will wait for the seal, get started prepping for another tear down, and look at the bright side:

gas is out of hand here, and the weather sucks right now.......


take care peeps, stay tuned for the next episode of 'as the blower turns'.......


davey

[blown 68]

well, she is coming out today, got all the lines, wiring, distributor, the blower and all his goodies, radiator, headers, all disconnected, just going to jack her up, get that tranny unhooked, and pull her out this afternoon. i am going to document all my findings, and post up here later.

oh, we got the newly designed bop seal, i will take photos and share as well. much thanks to wade again, for the stellar support, he has told us to call him anytime this weekend and share our findings with him.

so, out she comes, FOR THE LAST TIME, (go along with me..... so i can get some miles under her, and not puddles.

ya know? how sad is this: i have had the motor OUT of the car to change the oil each time, for the last two plus years!!!!! yikes........


more later folks, as the blower turns.........

davey

[blown 68]

well well well. where do i start. let's start here: i pulled the motor today, it went like a charm, i actually have the car up on four jackstands, front a teeny bit lower. i undid the whole topside when it was on the ground, then jacked it up to do the tranny, etc. i removed the driveline this time, put a floor jack under the tranny, unbolted the cross member, and moved the whole thing back off the dowels. the motor came straight up and out, no sweat, although it was 6 feet in the air to clear the nose! it made removing the oil pan nice, standing, with it at eye level.

the pan looked great, no junk in it for the first time, i am convinced my thrust was torn up everytime by the eagle. this ohio looks good. the bearings look great, always a little wear on them, but nothing deal breaking. pulled the rod caps,(after the timing cover and chain...) had to move the crank about back and forth a bit to get all eight undone. unbolted the mains, then out she came. crank looks great, thrust bearing looks great. the motor looks awesome inside, totally happy there. now on to the seal in question.......

i don't really need to explain anything. take a look at the pics showing the seal. i could swim through those gaps. i am surprised it didn't leak worse! so, definite bone to pick, took lots of pics, i have the original seal with me. the mating edges don't even line up. they are ground at an angle, meaning the back half would touch before the lip portion. and to boot? there is no crush at all. i measured it out of the cap/block, the id was 3.355. it measured 3.400 in the block installed the way it was. that's .045 gap! no question why it leaked........

there are pics of the new bop fitted, last pic, and one out. (next post.....)it has a much thinner inner wire, less than half of the original. maybe .050? the lip portion is like this: it has swirl marks, like threads, that start at one side, and screw into the inside, towards the motor, so it literally swirls the oil back into the motor. the old seal just had ribs, all going the same direction, where this one actually has lines in a thread pattern. it goes from one half to the other side, 180 degrees, so it is blank where it meets the other half, and starts over. i tried to catch in on film, but it was hard. look at it in the installed position, and the one laying down.....

so, i had the rope, i had the new bop, and a choice needs to be made. me and my uncle thought that if it were installed PROPERLY, that the new one would work. so, i kissed one side until i got my crush height, then kissed the other half on the same side until i got my crush height, and i installed it in the block and cap, rtv'ing the anti rotation holes, and it in,(just a light layer in the groove, just to take up any low spots.....). if it looks good tomorrow, i am going with it. i told myself rope it was, but i am going to be the guinea pig for the new bop, just for my man wade, as he sent it to me for free, and i feel like helping the community with a test bed for this new seal. i have a real good system for removing this damn engine by now, so what the hell........

okay, more details tomorrow, after i make a move, and get the bottom end sealed up. oh, what would the torque specs be for studded mains, and eagle rods? i don;t know them, and it would help me finish the bottom end up tomorrow.


thank you in advance...

davey

[blown 68]

some bearing shots, marked by my fingers for their location.........

[blown 68]

and a seal pic with the writing on it, it says 'flywheel side'.....

oh, torque specs for rods and mains if anyone has them, steel inner 4 bolt caps, factory 1 and 5, and eagle rods with arp bolts........

thanks!!

[JSchmitz]

That old seal install is rediculous. That guy should be beaten.

I have had great luck with my B.O.P. seal. I had a similar series of events, as you have, with a Cadillac seal. Only, I had split rear pan seals fooling me into thinking they were the problem. After a couple of rubber rear pan seals, I went with cork. Still had a leak. Finally, I had my engine builder put in an old asbestos rope I had saved. It worked pretty good. When I had the motor out chasing a knocking sound, I installed a B.O.P. I was afraid to try and re-use the rope. I fitted my B.O.P. with a belt sander (with a fine abrasive belt). I tried using a single cut file as recommended. I wasn't happy with the ends. The belt sander made very clean square ends. The finish on my seal groove was very rough. So, I chose to go against the instructions and put RTV sealer under the seal (not much). I used Ultra Black.

Good luck man! These things will test your sanity! I've had my car since I was 17. I'm 40 now. I was about ready to sell it! Like you said, "i have a real good system for removing this damn engine by now".

[Silver Judge]

Awww crap, what a PITA. You must be ready to beat somebody (and we know who) over the head.


Davey, although this last seal install was an obvious botched job, you've clearly located the real problem with the leak.

So, one way to look at this is that the mystery is solved and that DCI graphite seal is going to do the job this time. And it looks like you're going to get this together in plenty of time for Tiger Run too.

If only it was a little easier! Let us know how the DCI seal goes, we're expecting good news about DRY TIMES ~! Take care!

[blown 68]

famous last words, but i really do think i have it all figured out now.

the new bop looks great in there, my seal grooves all check out, the lip crush to crank looks good, so i am probably going with the newly designed bop. i have the rope, and i will make the time and not bitch about it to swap to it if this doesn't go right. but, if it DOES go right, all the more leverage for me when settling this deal, and the satisfaction of solving this MYSELF, and testing the new seal out for kicks.

definitely trying to make tiger run, don't know about racin', but definitely the show......

oh, i got the torque specs off of wallace, i was tired last night, not thinking straight, so nevermind peeps, more later............



davey

[flamedabone]

Wow...that old seal was pretty cocked up. Not only the gap, but the RTV all around the groove is asking for trouble.

I LOOOOVE the BOP seal. File em to fit, put little dabs of RTV in the little holes and never have a problem. (I even took one out of one motor and used it in another...don't tell anybody)

Good luck this time.. -Abone.

[blown 68]

good day in the garage, got the new bop in place, crank back in, everything bolted back up, and the pan put back on to button her all back up and ready to go back in minus a repaint and priming.......

one thing i noticed, but still went with it anyway, is the seal groove on the right, if looking at the pics, did not allow as much crush on the crank as the left side. it is about .010 less, but according to my math,(i held the top half and squeezed it with calipers until it looked to be the same gap wise), it was still getting .015 or so(i think, can't remember, but it looked ok.) compression on the crank.

christ, if it only leaked as bad as it did with the titanic gaps that were in the last one, this one should be just fine in my opinion........yours is welcome of course, the more the merrier.......

so, some preppin', paintin' an primin', and she's ready to go back in the hole. i hear the sixth time is the lucky one right?
well, if it leaks this time, it's MY fault, and if it doesn't? well, it will feel pretty damn good getting to the bottom of this on my own accord, and making it happen. hell, if it leaks, back out it comes, rope goes in, and the story is over. the next pictures/videos you see,(once it's back in...) is me drivin' this mofo.............

almost there........

davey

[guidos]

Good luck, I hope all is well, and we see you at Tiger Run and at the 1/8 mile, I would love to see you blast down the track!!

[Wade Congdon]

Davey,

Do you have any pics of how the new seal ends meet? That would be a nice comparison. I look forward to you next post.

[blown 68]

Originally Posted by Wade Congdon

Davey,

Do you have any pics of how the new seal ends meet? That would be a nice comparison. I look forward to you next post.

here ya go, the first one is how i found it, the second one is how i left it...........



davey

ps, thanks again, wade, i'll be sure to let you know what happens, my uncle has your contact info........

[blown 68]

hi dee ho folks, guess who.......

so, motor put back together, dropped her in, and in a record time, me and a friend got the motor in, everything hooked up, (blower too.) and ready to run in just 3 1/2 hours. i'm gettin' good at this i tell ya, real good.

so, i was off on my mark for timing, but other than that, she fired right up, warmed up great, then came the higher rpm's to set timing, etc...... i really ran her through the hoops, ran it a good twenty minutes, water was 190, (10 degrees hotter that it usually runs, but sitting idle in a garage...) oil was plenty hot at 220, pressure looked good, everything was honky dory, then came the time........ the time to look underneath the car. i knew i had run it hard, high, and hot enough to puke oil with any of the seals prior.

so, i asked my uncle, "me or you, who's lookin'......" "you" he says, so, down i go, heart beating a little bit faster, knowing i am ready to pull it right back out if it's haywire AGAIN.

verdict is in.......................................






















wait for it............................























survey says!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


























dry as a bone.

finally. i actually have a dry motor out back. so, i am off to the machinists right now, to settle up. then? i am going to finish this thing, clean it up, (a years worth of sitting in the garage), and go drive this damn thing. oh, i am doing some ignition stuff, got a new msd box, and am going to mess with vacuum advance for cruising and high idle. i noticed the car loves plenty of lead, as much as 26 initial was no problem for starting hot or cold. and to boot, this thing cooks the headers red hot at warm up, unless i add some lead into it. i have researched using vacuum to death, i know no one uses it on blower motors, but i am going to try......


ok folks, from here on, it's all about tuning, upgrades, roadtrips, maybe even some track time. no more f'ing leaks! so so so happy, thanks to everyone who has supported and helped me out on here, you rule. special thanks to wade for the seal donation, and i hope to provide feedback for you all on it's performance. so far, so good........

more later......



davey

[flamedabone]

Dude...I am soooo happy for you. I was holding my breath on the verdict thing..

My advise on timing? Get your distributor out and see how to adjust the initial and put lots into it. The dude at BDS basicly called me a moron for even considering vaccum advance. Of course, I had to try it, but could never get it where I wanted.

In the end, I had to modify the pin hole for the mech advance to get mine where I want it with no vaccum advance. Mine runs 25 initial and 38 total in by 3000.

Yes, that is alot of initial and total, but at 7.8:1 and aluminum heads, that it what she wants. No problems starting either.

Get out there and ruin some tires.

-Abone.