[KS circutguy]

Don't want studs, too hard to service.
Mostly street use. 175hp shot.
Look at the head gasket, must be lifting factory head bolts. (they were new with washers, properly torqued and re-torqued. almost 5 yrs. in service.)
Thinking of getting Cosmetic's and ARP bolts???


Looking like I broke top ring on this piston!
Sure hope I can re-use piston and re-ring. Will get the rest apart tomorrow after work.
What do all u guys think?

[KS circutguy]

BTW; Head gaskets were Butler GM type.

[Brian Baker]

Gaskets look copper to me. No O-rings? Factory head bolts? Where's 1/2" stud to praise the use of 40 year old factory head bolts when we need him?

Time to consider a better head gasket and better fastener. ARP bolts would be a step in the right direction, but I'd go with studs. They require no more attention than bolts. Cometics might be a better choice than the copper, unless you O-ring the deck.

[KS circutguy]

Brian, the copper is sprayed on before use, Gaskets were Butler factory type, as per Butlers instructions.
No o rings.


Studs way to go I know but can't be serviced in car like bolts??
lol on 1/2" comment!

[J.C.you]

hate to say it, but you might want to surface the head/heads and the block. more than likely this burned area will be be below the deck and head surface.

[Brian Baker]

I would suggest then ARP bolts with a better gasket. The Butler gasket may be ok with better fasteners, but why take the chance again? Check the bolts carefully to make sure they aren't too long. Been problems in the recent past with ARP bolts being too long, bottoming out and giving false torque readings (causing head gasket failures).

[KS circutguy]

Will end up re-doing everything to get it right, Really not as bad as it looks.lol
Thanks Brian, ARP bolts it is.

[rg500delta]

I had a 250 HP shot on my 65 413CID and altho it worked for a while, but eventually I fought endless problems with the head gasket blowing thru. tried every gasket, steel shim to solid copper, wire o-rings, copper spray, etc. decked the block and heads as well, using high strength fasteners. I had the motor well-built for nitrous but the head sealing proved to be tough one to solve. What are other guys doing to keep them sealed up, with high boost or 200+ nitrous systems? Man, the torque when you get into it from middle RPMs was f-u-n. Ancient history, tho. 8-/ My machinist said, "you just don't have enough head bolts" .

[PONTIAC DUDE]

5 years with juice. What's the complaint?

[chiphead]

Broken ring= detonation. Gaskets blown between fire rings= detonation. Piston spatter on middle cylinder= detonation. Detonation kills engines. Check the pistons carefully, its common to flatten or pinch a ring land when this happens. Use more octane, less timing, go rich, ARP and Cometics and it'll likely live on the spray.

[Brian Baker]

Yup. The Discomobile's 467 stroker ran 11:1 CR with #62 d-port heads. Copper gaskets with O-ring in the deck, receiver groove in the head. ARP studs. Ran 34 degrees timing naturally aspirated with the mechanical advance locked out (made for great throttle response and allowed the car to be staged with full advance). Ran 27 degrees timing with a 200 shot and 26 degrees with a 250 shot, pulling the timing out with a retard box triggered by the WOT switch for the nitrous. Always ran VP C16 fuel in it to be safe when spraying nitrous. When running naturally aspirated however, it ran fine on VP Red. Ran tighter plug gaps on spray...always ran .045" n/a but tightened it up to .030"-.032" on spray.

Built that engine with running 400+ HP hits of nitrous in mind, but never got higher than a 250 shot.

Lastly...I always followed Ken "PontiacDude" Keefer's advice on what to do with nitrous and never hurt anything. Hope some of this info helps.

[rg500delta]

Man, I have been poking around on the forum, what a ton of great info. I had a separate fuel system to inject with N20, glad I was not the only one doing this. I did fight detonation and used an edelbrock vari-jection (water injection) system to try and keep it under control, but it was not super-reliable. At the time (mid 80s) I did not have a system to retard timing when on the nitrous and my CR was probably too high anyway- when I first built it I could buy 98 octane but as fuel quality fell I should have reduced CR. It's amazing how fast you guys are going with these old motors. I guess all the new bits and pieces help!! But, that was then and this is now.

I have been out of the Pontiac arena for a while and am just starting to build up a 428 to go in a 70 LeMans. This time, I'm thinking a decent street motor, not too stressed, with 9.5:1 and -maybe- a *small* nitrous system to give it some teeth when needed. I bagged a set of #96 heads to put on it.

Any suggestions on internals, cam selection, ignition and other specifics to make an utterly bulletproof street 428 with an occasional 150 HP shot on it? This will not be a drag car, so I want pretty crisp performance when normally aspirated. The nitrous is just so I'm not humiliated by a Cadillac or some other stupid fast passenger car! I do not want to run dual fuel systems again. Pump gas is in m y future. A dual-curve ignition seems ideal. Is nitrous a no-go with pump gas ~ 89 octane?

I am all ears, as I hope to gain from others' experience this time around- I don't have time, resources (or energy) to go thru a painful learning curve. Curious, does anyone run detonation sensors or similar to keep an eye on what's happening? I Just put a data acquisition system on my bike and I think it will be very useful. Cheap D/A systems are becoming more common on bikes.. what about steet cars?

TIA

Randy N

[goquick]

I am making a suggestion for info purposes. Have you checked out the small block Ford guys way of dealing with this? They have fought this too and I believe there is some renegade guys that are using bolts without issues now. Remember, they have 4 bolts per cylinder also.

[goquick]

A quick PM or email to Tom V. might be in order for you too.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Hmmmm,

Running rich
EXH valves need a bit more lash
wondering about Total ADV and ping.
ADJ CYLs breach-leak at gasket indicates detonation from imbalanced misture (on CYL going lean under WOT)
Ring Broke in 3-places = ping under load.
---------------------------------------------------
Oh, the head gaskets are lifting...well use CLEAN factory headbolts and retorque ONLY after engie has returned to STONE-COLD. REPLACE the intake system with a equalized mixture. AVOID ping under load.
Get comfortable with Reading plugs. AVOID running TOO-rich at idle& part-throttle, then plugs will tell stories about WOT.

HIS

[chiphead]

500Delta,

You'd get more responses if you start a new thread.

But to summarize, for what you want to do with a 428, you don't even need spray. We got new-school parts now to go crazy fast on pump gas.

[KS circutguy]

1/2"
Agree, rich.
Good news NO broken rings, pistons look otay, gunna have the tops and skirts coated this time.
Freshen heads, ARP head bolts, Cosmetrics.
Torque plate hone block.

[Goat-Racer]

The ARP bolts are a good move, and the Butler gaskets will work just fine providing that you torque the new bolts to 95 ft lbs. with ARP moly lube.
Have your heads surfaced and straight edge the block to make sure it's still reasonably flat. Cut it if it's not.

I burned a set of Butler gaskets (my fault) between 3-5 and 4-6 a few years ago. Thats when I realized that I only used motor oil on the threads and washers of the ARP bolts and not the ARP moly lube. It makes a HUGE difference with the clamping load on the gasket.
From that time I ran many passes with a 225 shot on a 10:1 iron headed combo at 28 degrees total.
Ran quite a bit on a 175 jetting on straight pump gas also at 28 total.

Don't know how well the Cometic's will work for a long term street app.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Like I said. What's the complaint/ 5 years on spray and no major issues.

ARP bolts and cometics should do the job. And yes use the moly lube. Torque and retorque.

[KS circutguy]

Thanks for all the comments fellows!
BTW;
What is the recommended re-torque procedure??
I usually just re check.
Loosen then re-torque, or just re-check each in proper sequence?