[69*Goat]

[quote=Larry Navarro;5092007] when Russell Wells (aka *69goat) came by the house with the massive binder of literature aquired from a retired Pontiac service tech.


urr uhh, that would be 69*Goat... LOL Hahaha

[Larry Navarro]

....well, I stand corrected.

hmmm.......when was the last time someone ever stated that .......

[SD73]

Originally Posted by keith k

Agreed - features that appear on build sheets but not PHS invoices are things that are "no cost". A sunroof would be extra cost as it wasn't standard with any trim package, so if it was factory installed it would be on the PHS invoice.

The code is interesting info. It certainly suggests that there was at least consideration to it being a factory option at some point in the development process. That doesn't always mean it happened, though (ref. RA IV Formulas, SD455 Grand Ams, etc.).

I checked my '73 Firebird Parts Catalog (dated Dec '72) and sure enough, there it is. My later April '83 last edition Parts Catalog doesn't show it. It looks like it was placed in the Parts Catalog for the weight tables to be able to properly order springs for variously optioned birds.

However, a potential customer had no way to find out about the option and there is no advertised pricing as the code isn't in the Dealer Albums or any of the pricing tables. Some of the other Pontiac literature specifically say which platforms it's available on and our birds are not one of them.

I agree that if this is a factory option that it does show up in a listing with pricing on some of the PHS documentation.

That said, I do love the roof. To me if it were Factory Installed, Dealer Installed, or a second day install, it would not affect my love for the car. It seems especially nice and appropriate for fully loaded T/A.

[Larry Navarro]

Ironically speaking......it sure is strange that all of a sudden so many examples of sunroof firebirds are surfacing.
That alone ought to raise a flag.
Somehow, customers were informed of the offering by Pontiac and opted for a sunroof.
Common business practice would dictate that Pontiac didn't do it for free and somewhere down the chain, got their money out of the deal....be it from the assembly line or "authorized contractor".

We can all agree that the SUBJECT MATTER of this on-going debate is settled.........there IS (was) an option code for the sunroof on a firebird.....PERIOD.

[brians]

Personally love the roof no matter who put it in, but just out of curiosity, I looked up the codes in the GM RPO master list.

Was there ever a removable sunroof panel available or proposed in 73?
Title of RPO CF7 is “roof, sun, removable, non-transparent”

The RPO code CA1 is assigned to “roof, sun, steel sliding, electric”

Would have thought that CA1 would have been assigned to the type of roof discussed here no matter what body in 73?

[Rocky Rotella]

Just arrived back after a work-related overnight in Kansas City.

Larry, the information you present is very interesting. It looks like the pages you have are from an April 1982-dated Master Parts Catalog. The second page that lists the RPOs is a generic page that lists most RPOs used during that time and isn’t body style specific, but the first page is.

As SD73 noted, CF7 was listed in the Firebird-section of the parts manuals for a few years, so the “code” has been around for a while, just not known by the masses. It’s still a great find on your part and that doesn’t take away anything you’ve presented here. Unfortunately it doesn’t mean that a sunroof was ever a factory installed option though. And on and aside, again as SD73 stated, I have a few dozen MPCs and the best I can tell, it disappeared shortly after your printing.

I’ve been compiling information on the sunroof-equipped Firebirds for a project I am working on. You’ll all be able to see all the info in print (and most likely photos of such a car) in the book I am working on entitled “The Definitive Firebird Guide 1967-1981.” Here’s a pretty heavy summary of what the section will include and it starts with Pontiac-installed sunroofs in general.

The sunroof option was announced for the A- and G-body at the beginning of the 1973 model year, but per Car Distribution Bulletins, the manual- and electric-steel roof units were delayed for several weeks past the start of production. The unit compatible with the vinyl roof was held until approximately Jan 1, 1973.

Pontiac planned to include a factory-installed sunroof option on the Ventura model line in 1973. It was on Hold Status for several months past the start of production and ultimately cancelled per a CDB. This is very significant to Firebird because Ventura was built at the same GMAD plant in Norwood, Ohio. Therefore, had Ventura production actually occurred, it was conceivable that the sunroof could have made its way into the F-car line. Knowing that no Venturas were built with sunroofs, however, it suggests production or procurement issues. To what extent I have no idea.

The only location CF7 has ever been found so far in was in Section 7 of the MPC, and it apparently limited to Firebird specific printings. As it applies to Section 7, it lists the total weight the option added to the vehicle. We can guess from this document that Pontiac knew Firebird owners were having ASC sunroofs installed on their Firebirds, and they may have been creating issues ride-height or gross-vehicle capacity ratings of the vehicle when non-factory equipment was added.

NJ Steve brings up a very important point. I have come across a vintage bulletin from another make that stated aftermarket sunroofs were becoming popular and if a potential customer asks about it, encourage them to consider a larger wheel/tire package. Apparently it’s to incur the weight and/or load the non-factory option adds.

Mopar had ASC contracted to install sunroofs on certain models and noted it with a RPO code on the fender tag and broadcast sheet. I believe Pontiac did exactly the same with its A- and G-body cars. I’m trying to determine in Pontiac’s case if CA1 or CO3 options actually included an additional body preparation or up-level suspension equipment on the LeMans, Grand Am, or Grand Prix.

Dealers may have been encouraged to sell sunroofs in any model ASC had a kit for. Since ASC was a GM contract-ee, the quality was very good and practically OE-like. They were likely rewarded with some type of kickback just like any other aftermarket component they might sell then or today. And customers may have learned about them from brochures and flyers the dealers had available, the salesman trying to upsell for commission, magazine articles about the popular equipment, and even an A- or G-body the Pontiac dealer had on the lot or show room.

To repeat exactly what I said in the other thread, none of this suggests or infers that Pontiac ever installed or offered the sunroof in the Firebird line has surfaced to date. Until we can find an UPC/RPO in the Pontiac price list and/or a build sheet or PHS document with any reference to a sunroof or its preparation on a Firebird, and the sunroof can’t and shouldn’t be considered a factory option on the Firebird line. That doesn’t say CF7 wasn’t in certain parts books, and again, as I said the other thread, that doesn’t make them interesting or unique!

Just one other point to note on this topic since we’re in it so in depth, has anyone come across a parts list for service replacement parts for the Firebird sunroof in a Pontiac MPC?

[Larry Navarro]

Good thing my information is "very interesting"......I will expect an "honorable mention" in your definitive book as one to produce information that otherwise would have never been known.

[weranc55]

Originally Posted by Larry Navarro

Ironically speaking......it sure is strange that all of a sudden so many examples of sunroof firebirds are surfacing.
That alone ought to raise a flag.
Somehow, customers were informed of the offering by Pontiac and opted for a sunroof.
Common business practice would dictate that Pontiac didn't do it for free and somewhere down the chain, got their money out of the deal....be it from the assembly line or "authorized contractor".

We can all agree that the SUBJECT MATTER of this on-going debate is settled.........there IS (was) an option code for the sunroof on a firebird.....PERIOD.

I agree that there is a option code for the sunroof however I don't think we will see a PHS with one listed.

[The Boss]

I didn't get the VIN into PHS early enough today to get a fax back copy - we'll have to wait until tomorrow on the codes.

However, you may find these pictures interesting...drain tubes are installed from the sunroof, through the quarter panels and out the drain plugs in the quarter drops...very factory like! Were yours like this Larry?

Also - have there been any sunroof examples prior to the 73 model year?

[necdb3]

Originally Posted by The Boss

I didn't get the VIN into PHS early enough today to get a fax back copy - we'll have to wait until tomorrow on the codes.

However, you may find these pictures interesting...drain tubes are installed from the sunroof, through the quarter panels and out the drain plugs in the quarter drops...very factory like! Were yours like this Larry?

Also - have there been any sunroof examples prior to the 73 model year?

That's amazing that the drop off's are in such good shape! With the water from the sunroof you would think they would be rotted.

[Larry Navarro]

Originally Posted by The Boss

However, you may find these pictures interesting...drain tubes are installed from the sunroof, through the quarter panels and out the drain plugs in the quarter drops...very factory like! Were yours like this Larry

Yes Chris they are.

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by necdb3

That's amazing that the drop off's are in such good shape! With the water from the sunroof you would think they would be rotted.

Only 14,000 miles on the car.

[necdb3]

Man! That is a cool find

[Larry Navarro]

Originally Posted by The Boss

I didn't get the VIN into PHS early enough today to get a fax back copy - we'll have to wait until tomorrow on the codes.

However, you may find these pictures interesting...drain tubes are installed from the sunroof, through the quarter panels and out the drain plugs in the quarter drops...very factory like! Were yours like this Larry?

Also - have there been any sunroof examples prior to the 73 model year?

my old red car with 64k miles.....the drop-offs are pristine as well as whole body.

[Rocky Rotella]

Originally Posted by Larry Navarro

Good thing my information is "very interesting"......I will expect an "honorable mention" in your definitive book as one to produce information that otherwise would have never been known.

Larry, I have known about CF7 for a little while now. Not for years, but I'd say at least several months. I found it in the same MPC series you likely found yours. Since the discovery, it prompted me to look hard at such examples and try to learn more about the potential option so I could include it in my book. Unfortunately, nothing I have found yet suggests a factory install on the Firebird line and it's looking less likely the harder I look. The most encouraging info was the Ventura option, but it was cancelled before it even started dashing that hope.

As I look for info on these cars, your former Super Duty was one that kept coming to mind concerning documentation, but I recall you saying one time that it was converted by the owner after taking delivery. If I'm unable to find such a car to photograph for the book, I had plans to tap into Randy's photos of your old car for a potential example in the book. So the photos not all might be for naught!

[Larry Navarro]

Huh?!?!?

You've known about CF7 code for several months?.............

Is there anyone else out there as puzzled as me?

Wow!

[njsteve]

Originally Posted by The Boss

Also - have there been any sunroof examples prior to the 73 model year?

Yes, I looked at a rusty, white 72 T/A with the sunroof back in 2004. It had the glass center section instead of the steel but it was the ASC version. (glass was an upgrade option).

[Rocky Rotella]

Larry, I have, and let me explain.

I am knee deep in my book project right now and Cartech wants it to be much more than a typical Firebird book. I’ve been specifically told not to retell the entire Firebird development story since there are a number of books printed over the years that cover it. They are looking more for obscure facts and unique examples and info not generally known. More along the lines of, “This is what was Pontiac planned to happen, but here’s what really occurred in production during this model year.” The sunroof is a prime example.

As you probably know, I have been collecting Pontiac literature for more than 20 years now. Gearing up for a project like this, I have been rat-holing information for the past couple of years. I bought out a dealership’s info and with it was at least one Firebird MPC and CF7 is listed in it. I have been buying up bulletins and documents for several years and have been posting on various sites including PY asking for copies of various bulletins anyone may have in their collections. A number of people have obliged and it's been a huge help!

The biggest score was when I came across a treasure trove of information in purchasing a literature collection from a noted author of a popular Firebird book. He gathered his reference file back when the Second-gen Firebird was still in production and it has lots of cool facts and bulletins in it. I paid what I consider an extremely healthy sum, but it included thousands of old press photos and the info. And that includes some aftermarket companies like Mecham, TA Specialities (Bandit Trans Ams), Deko (made the hatchback wagon after Pontiac cancelled the concept.), etc. Nothing from or on ASC, however.

I have also been acquiring various other bulletins and have been putting some cool things together like when Pontiac actually released 611 Ram Air with 348 400 H.O. for production in 1969. Was K65 Unitized Ignition standard on the 1972 Trans Am? And speaking of that, there are two other reasons beyond the strike that 1972 models (and 455 H.O. in particular) are so rare. I’ve also uncovered the number of SD-455 Firebirds built in each month during the 1974 model year. And then I have been working with General Motors to acquire some VERY special F production numbers for 1967-1969. I’m headed to Detroit this spring to look at even more VERY special info on production in the 1970s.

Believe me when I say, I feel this is going to be a VERY special Pontiac book that will, in some way appeal to every 1967 to 1981 Firebird owner. There’s going to be something new on just about every model year. And best of all, much of what you’ll be reading is info taken directly from Pontiac’s memos, bulletins, dealer books, and production reports. Now if I could just get GM to waive the licensing fee for use of the vintage photos…

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by Rocky Rotella

Larry, I have, and let me explain.

I am knee deep in my book project right now and Cartech wants it to be much more than a typical Firebird book. I’ve been specifically told not to retell the entire Firebird development story since there are a number of books printed over the years that cover it. They are looking more for obscure facts and unique examples and info not generally known. More along the lines of, “This is what was Pontiac planned to happen, but here’s what really occurred in production during this model year.” The sunroof is a prime example.

As you probably know, I have been collecting Pontiac literature for more than 20 years now. Gearing up for a project like this, I have been rat-holing information for the past couple of years. I bought out a dealership’s info and with it was at least one Firebird MPC and CF7 is listed in it. I have been buying up bulletins and documents for several years and have been posting on various sites including PY asking for copies of various bulletins anyone may have in their collections. A number of people have obliged and it's been a huge help!

The biggest score was when I came across a treasure trove of information in purchasing a literature collection from a noted author of a popular Firebird book. He gathered his reference file back when the Second-gen Firebird was still in production and it has lots of cool facts and bulletins in it. I paid what I consider an extremely healthy sum, but it included thousands of old press photos and the info. And that includes some aftermarket companies like Mecham, TA Specialities (Bandit Trans Ams), Deko (made the hatchback wagon after Pontiac cancelled the concept.), etc. Nothing from or on ASC, however.

I have also been acquiring various other bulletins and have been putting some cool things together like when Pontiac actually released 611 Ram Air with 348 400 H.O. for production in 1969. Was K65 Unitized Ignition standard on the 1972 Trans Am? And speaking of that, there are two other reasons beyond the strike that 1972 models (and 455 H.O. in particular) are so rare. I’ve also uncovered the number of SD-455 Firebirds built in each month during the 1974 model year. And then I have been working with General Motors to acquire some VERY special F production numbers for 1967-1969. I’m headed to Detroit this spring to look at even more VERY special info on production in the 1970s.

Believe me when I say, I feel this is going to be a VERY special Pontiac book that will, in some way appeal to every 1967 to 1981 Firebird owner. There’s going to be something new on just about every model year. And best of all, much of what you’ll be reading is info taken directly from Pontiac’s memos, bulletins, dealer books, and production reports. Now if I could just get GM to waive the licensing fee for use of the vintage photos…

The book sound great Rocky, but can we stick to the topic?

Does ASC still exist? Has anyone thought to contact them?

[bird72]

If I can be a volunteer Juror, I say the verdict is out, but putting togethor preliminary and circumstantial evidence, my jury vote now woulld be:

I would guess with the known affiliation of GM an ASC, that "some" dealers (the hip ones) I could see promoting as in actively offering the sun roofs to buyers and arranging installs, before any miles went on car.

My vote: a quasi almost option, for whatever that means

more info may come to light to change this opinion, but I would be surprised, in this sometimes murky world of retro piecing togethor history.

oh, and momma always said never mix too much red meat and sunroof talk