[chuckies76ta]

I have the same oil line setup as OP with the filter located up at the core support and recently switched from AN6 to AN 12 lines. Total length of both lines is 9ft. and there is well over 1qt of oil in those lines.

Hmmm: I would have to say you just got lucky with the -6, and 9 ft of line.

[chuckies76ta]

Originally Posted by 1969400HO

Ive honestly never experienced a lag of oiling puppy related issue unless running an engine with extended time and no oil pumping then things collapsed yes but not on a small momentary filter type changeout.
Air in a hydraulic system is a factor that causes interruptive designed for fluids materials, yet the common occurrence of air trapped is what the issue is crated by introducing trapped air between fluids by filling filters.
Oil-air-oil-air-oil is a natural barrier not a conduit condition.

What the hell are you smoking. lol.. Just had to ask..?

[1969400HO]

uuhhmm ok, If you say so

[chuckies76ta]

Hey, No disrespect meant. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But once you put an empty oil filter on an engine, via whatever housing that's being used, the oil filter is full of air. The pump will push all the oil in through the filter and will start supplying oil to every part of the engine. There is nothing to stop the oil and air from being trapped in the oiling system. The engine crankcase is vented as mentioned.

Now, I do understand what your trying to explain, I think. Something to do when air is trapped in a line and has no where to go and the fluid will not circulate. I've seen it in closed loop boiler hot water heating. and steam boilers. The air trapped in the line prevents the hot water from flowing through the loop. Once the trapped air is released to atmosphere, the heated water or glycol will circulate. It's like the circulating pump cannot over come the air trapped in the line.

Now having said that, there is nothing preventing the air in the oil filter from escaping into the engine via to atmosphere or carb PCV.. Our engines are not closed loop. Maybe my engine is which has a vacuum pump on it, but it will start pulling air and vapors as soon as started. I would rather have the oil filter full so that there is no lag time. Hell, some of these higher H/P engines have an oil priming system before firing. Some engines run an oil accumulator to supply oil when and if the oil pump can't supply oil for whatever reason or pressure in the oiling system drops below a certain pressure. .. Just my opinion.

[steve25]

Fluid Heating systems, steam boilers and automotive cooling systems will not fail from air pockets, the systems just will not work, that being said you should take some time to talk to high end race engine builders who due to airated oil in motors they where building had repetitive Bearing failures until they figured out what was taking place.

Airated oil can be compressed and in that state even though there's plenty of oil volume and pressure the oil film that is between the bearings is useless!

[chuckies76ta]

Originally Posted by steve25

Fluid Heating systems, steam boilers and automotive cooling systems will not fail from air pockets, the systems just will not work, that being said you should take some time to talk to high end race engine builders who due to airated oil in motors they where building had repetitive Bearing failures until they figured out what was taking place.

Airated oil can be compressed and in that state even though there's plenty of oil volume and pressure the oil film that is between the bearings is useless!

I never made any reference to anything failing in a heating system. And I wasn't talking about aerated oil. The decision was to do with filling an oil filter. I was trying to relate to it.

[grandam1979]

What oil pump are you using 60 or 80psi running that far to filter I would want 80 psi not 60 psi FYI I didn’t read every post if you said already

[Steve C.]

It's never a dry start. There is always a permanent oil film on metal after the first minute of a motors life. IF you are hearing clicking and clacking on cold start (or maybe even rod bearing rattle if old engine) it is from lack of capillary fill. Nothing else. An oil film is there. What MAY be happening is the so called drain-off effect.

More in his answer here in post #12

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th...issues.261843/


.

[steve25]

My comment in post 46 was not really in response to anyone, just making note of other oil related issue that will ruin your fun real fast!

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by chuckies76ta

I never made any reference to anything failing in a heating system. And I wasn't talking about aerated oil. The decision was to do with filling an oil filter. I was trying to relate to it.

I personally learned in the early 1970s that a proper oil change involved putting oil into the filter prior to installing it on the engine. It does not take much time at all for the oil to fill the lines or passages, even with remote filters/ oil coolers.

I ran a long remote filter system on my car at one point and used a dual oil filter with a "Y" coming off the outlet side of the filters with a .040" bleed in the two lines to the passenger side valve cover.

Today I would plump a single line into the passenger oil side of the timing cover and never have to remove it when adjusting the valves.

Never had a single oil issue at hundreds and hundreds of rpm blasts on the street. I added the oil cooler/ filter relocation and bleed circuit because I was turning higher rpm than most with the 4.33 gear in the rear at highway speeds.

Tom V.

[1969400HO]

Its a serious issue if you get caught n the scenario , especially if remote firewall filter set up are used.
It can throw any good mechanic for a loop if pressures don't come up and they rethink troubleshooting it.

[chuckies76ta]

Originally Posted by steve25

My comment in post 46 was not really in response to anyone, just making note of other oil related issue that will ruin your fun real fast!

That's fair Steve. I was just clarifying myself. I defiantly valve your opinion as well as everyone else's when looking for information. I never heard of oil aeration before, so always learning something new. Thank you

[Sirrotica]

Oil aeration is a real thing, and it can destroy an oil pump from the hammering of compressing the air and it pushing back against the oil pump gears causing cavitation. Having made my living for many years working on hydraulic systems I have seen first hand what damage it can cause.

if you ever have heard your pipes hammer in your home as the washer fills and shuts off, you have seen/heard the phenomenon. The cure is a upward tube filled with air to cushion the shock, or an accumulator. When the fluid hammers it can increase the pressure momentarily to 10 times the normal pressure. So 50 lbs of oil pressure can become 500 lbs.

Filling the oil filter during an oil change is a complete waste of time. I believe the poster was talking about the media being wet before the air is purged from the system, and how it can stop the air from escaping much easier than a dry media.

Anytime you do an oil change there is air introduced into the system, filling the oil filter and wetting the media can inhibit the air from flowing freely out to the end of the system. NO oil filter company ever suggests filling the oil filters before installing them. And 50 years of turning wrenches for a living, I have never attended any seminar, or read any bulletins, or literature from all the years working in GM dealers that recommended filling oil filters when changing them. It's a custom that someone many years ago someone thought that they were revolutionizing oil changing in automobiles by pre filling the filters. They may actually be doing more harm than good by not allowing the air to escape as soon as possible from the pressurized system.

Likewise all the training I've had in the hydraulics field, I was never told it was better to prefill oil filters, it just isn't done. That field knows way more about fluid dynamics than any guys that change oil in automobiles.

If air is sucked into the suction side of a hydraulic system the air bubbles popping under pressure cause cavitation, cavitation will shatter an oil pump as well as valves and piping. It's a real thing that is very destructive in hydraulic systems. You want all the air to escape the system back to tank/pan and be vented off away from the fluid.

If you soaked an air filter in oil, and put it on an engine it would inhibit the air flow into the intake system and throw the A/F ratio way off, Same goes for oiling the oil filter media before the air is purged from the system, it will impede the flow of air out of the pressure side of the system.

I'm sure the arrows will be slung, so let them fly.

[wakesupremo]

Thanks for the many informative posts. Its always a shame though when there are disagreements. My oil pump is a Mark Luhn pump. I believe he/ They change the gearing so that the pump turns quicker but I'm not 100% certain of that fact.My oil pressure does sway much more than it did with the other motor, by which I mean, at driving/ cruising revs I get 60 PSI, as soon as I cruise to a junction it drops to 20PSI a tiny rev and it goes back up to 60 PSI. My manual gauge is taken from the port next to the distributor. It never swayed this much with the old 400. I wonder if I need more oil in the pan because of the longer oil lines to the filter???

[461-69bird]

Yes Gary, same thing I had below 3000rpm. Put more oil in and it stopped doing it.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by wakesupremo

I wonder if I need more oil in the pan because of the longer oil lines to the filter???

In simple terms, Yes, you added volume to the oil system (between the oil pump and the location of the oil filter in both directions). You have a very short distance to the oil filter mount/filter with a stock pontiac system.

Much more (several feet of hose) in both directions with the oil filter mounted at the radiator support or close to the front bumper.
Oil lines have to be completely filled to work the best.

So you have to purge out the air in those lines (air entered the lines when you removed the filter(s)), and add the additional oil needed to keep the oil pick-up covered under acceleration and feed the engine parts.

-10 and -12 oil lines will hole more oil than you would assume, especially when the filter(s) are at the front of the engine.

Same theory applies to accusump type oil reservoirs.
Either you left the dirty oil in the accusump or you opened the valve up and let the oil drain into the pan. Most accusump reservoirs are 2 quart or 3 quart. So you have to add oil in the pan to fill those too, just like a remote oil filter system. If you do not do that you will be low on the dip stick when the engine is running as less oil above the oil pick-up.

Simple.

I ran the oil cooler/oil filter set-up for about 10 years. Never had one oil issue
in that time. I had a enlarged sump pan and a recalibrated dipstick.

Tom V.

[Steve C.]

Repeat from post #34....

"I have the same oil line setup as OP with the filter located up at the core support and recently switched from AN6 to AN 12 lines. Total length of both lines is 9ft. and there is well over 1qt of oil in those lines."

Again, there is more to it than knowing the oil pan holds X quarts of oil. It's the total system capacity. The oil lines to and from a remote filter if used and the amount inside the filter. Oil is up inside a running engine. Then factor in potential oil drain back issues from the cylinder heads to the oil pan.

.

[Tom Vaught]

Thank You Steve.

Tom V.

[dataway]

Millions and millions of engines have oil filter arrangements that make it impossible to pre-fill them with oil because they are mounted horizontally. Every time the engine is shut down the oil drains out of the filter, both of my tractors have this arrangement.

Never heard that engines with horizontally mounted filers had any higher failure rate than any other engine.

[Tom Vaught]

People can do whatever they want.

I realize there is an oil film on the bearing of an engine prior to a start.

I also know that it takes time for the oil to travel to the different parts of the engine.
On our dyno engines, we had oil/filter changes at given intervals, during the testing cycles. Some engines would run for 2800 hours on the dyno for durability testing. Around 350,000 street miles.

What we would do is:

a) Drain the oil and remove the filter

b) Install a new filter and add the proper amount of oil to the engine.

c) Motor the engine (using the engine dyno for power to turn the engine over)
until we saw oil pressure on our engine test stand monitors.

d) Verify that the cooling tower was filled with water to the proper level.

e) Verify that the oil measurement height on the dip stick was correct after the cooling tower check.
(that let the oil drain back into the pan from the upper end of the engine during that check).

f) Fire the engine and do the 15 minute warm up cycle.

g) Resume the durability testing.

You can do what you want. I do what I saw was a robust process.
Filling the oil filter prior to firing the engine being one of those observations.
Whether you did it by pre-filling the filter or by cranking the engine over before firing to fill the filter is up to
you and your application. With Pontiacs just remove the coil wire from the distributor.


Tom V.