#21  
Old 09-07-2021, 06:52 PM
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Skip Fix Skip Fix is offline
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You can buy one of the cheap in vice testers and a dial caliper to get you a ballpark.
https://www.summitracing.com/search/...spring-testers
They also have the copy of the Moroso compressor for about half the cost too.

So no machine shops that build high performance engines there? Valve spring testers are kind of generic.

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
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  #22  
Old 09-07-2021, 06:57 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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You are in somewhat of a dilemma regarding checking valve springs. I've repeated it many times, do not trust the specifications listed in a catalog for spring pressures.

Here is one personal example from years ago with a set of Lunati valve springs. I bought a set of their #74500 springs that were rated at 200lbs seat pressure at 1.850" installed height at the time.
They ended up installed at about 1.920" with 219-220 pounds seat pressure. Isolated case? No, I called the source I bought them from and they pulled two sets of the same springs off their shelf and tested those. They were about 230 lbs at 1.900"

Now think of the pressure if installed at their rated 1.850" installed height !

I was given the name and contact for a spring engineer at Lunati from my source. When I called he was VERY surprised and then said the springs must of been mis-labeled !

.

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  #23  
Old 09-07-2021, 10:34 PM
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So if I understand correctly you only have 2000 miles on these Lunati springs, which have 140 lbs seat, 360+ spring rate, 1.1 coil bind. If it was able to control the valves with the smaller 423, the new cam is a variation of a 433. Which is only one step bigger from the same cam family for shelf grinds. My opinion is you really shouldn’t need to do anything but switch cams. Switching springs at 2000 miles seem recreational to me. Should go 20K before loosing any spring pressure on that mild spring. Be nice to know the actual pressures for the springs, what Steve C said.and fwiw…looking at the Lunati spring specs, I would have put a .030” shim under the springs with either cam.

That new cam your looking at is a much better choice. Get it done.

  #24  
Old 09-08-2021, 02:48 AM
Chris-Austria Chris-Austria is offline
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The problem is, we have absolutely no expert on such engines where I live and I don't want to go hundrets of miles to a shop in Germany.
I did that once... a engine builder (big shop) built my 428... it was expensive, needed much time and failed after 1,5 years. After that I descided to do everything by myself with the help of a friend who has a shop here (he mainly repairs domestic cars like VW, BMW and also Asian cars which are popular here).
The engine was build to 462cui with the components I listed. I got everything from Butler and trusted them with everything. Runs really good without issues, but my cam choice at the time was not the best.

Long story short... I don't even trust the bigger shops around here and I may just use the Edelbrock springs Butler sells with their kits. I'll ask them on their experience with these springs (I guess they check them if they build an engine).

On the other hand I have some opinions like what Jay S said... that the almost new Lunati springs will work as well which will safe me hours of work and hundrets of dollars.

  #25  
Old 09-08-2021, 06:27 AM
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Chris, just get the73100 springs and install them as they come out of the box if you have to.

You will then have atleast the seat pressure you have now and a spring installed that does not reach coil bind when installed at 1.800" until .700" lift, instead of .570" lift like you have with your springs now.

You will also gain the extended life of a far better made spring then what the E heads ship with!

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  #26  
Old 09-08-2021, 07:34 AM
Chris-Austria Chris-Austria is offline
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The 73100 springs are what is installed at the moment. I also talked to Butler now and they say the 73100 will technically work, but he cannot say if there may be a problem with valve float. They recommend the Edelbrock 5845 and I guess I will buy these springs with a spring compressor tool (from Proform). Don't want to risk more than necessary.
I hope the tool works well with the heads on.... good news is we already have a 14mm plug for compressed air

I wish I had the options and opportunities you have (and the prices). But in the end we will achieve our goals. Glad you help me out and share your experience with me. Maybe one day I'll get everything sold and move to the US... gets more and more complicated and expensive over here...

  #27  
Old 09-08-2021, 07:46 AM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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The Edelbrock is a single coil spring !

Like Jay suggested add a shim under your existing springs and make the cam change.

I'm very VERY surprised your friend who has a shop there does not have a bench tester to check valve springs.

.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #28  
Old 09-08-2021, 08:13 AM
"QUICK-SILVER" "QUICK-SILVER" is offline
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Wouldn't be very accurate but could have your own reference numbers and a way to keep up with and compare spring pressures.

Hang a fish scale on the end of the handle of a stud mount spring compressor.

Clay

  #29  
Old 09-08-2021, 08:27 AM
Chris-Austria Chris-Austria is offline
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On their page they say "dual"
https://butlerperformance.com/i-3123...3Fq%3DEDL-5845
Valve Springs, Hyd Roller, Dual, 1.460 in. O.D., 150 psi @ 1.800 inst. height, 1.150 in. Coil Bind Height

I was also surprised.. he said he does not do such "repairs" and ne need for these tools. Last time we had the heads off and changed the stock E-head springs to the Lunati with a tool that almost cracked under the pressure. I guess the Proform will be a lot better... I ordered this one: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66784

  #30  
Old 09-08-2021, 09:21 AM
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Butler has the edelbrock springs listed incorrectly. They are single springs, they have very high spring rate to dampen harmonics because they are a single spring. The only thing good about them is they cheapen the spring and cam, or complete head kit up to make them look cheaper.

The 73100 are pretty weak. Only a 333lb spring rate. Doesn’t seem like that matches up with what you post earlier which were said to be in the engines??


Last edited by Jay S; 09-08-2021 at 09:28 AM.
  #31  
Old 09-08-2021, 09:32 AM
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Ship the springs to a shop? If the new cam won't get you too near coil bind you can do the math and shim what you have to increase seat pressure. What I had to do with the Crane springs, and why I'm not using 1.65 rockers.

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
  #32  
Old 09-08-2021, 09:41 AM
Chris-Austria Chris-Austria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris-Austria View Post
engine is a 462cui, 1.5 roller rockers, 72cc edelbrock d-port heads, rpm intake, 10.25:1 CR and Sniper EFI

Spring specs are: Lunati Dual Springs 140 @ 1.800, 330 @ 1.250, 1.100 Coil Bind
Thats what I said I have, which are the 73100 springs.
I changed the stock e-head springs with the Lunati 73100 for the XE276HR cam (heads first came with springs for flat tappet).

  #33  
Old 09-08-2021, 09:42 AM
Chris-Austria Chris-Austria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay S View Post
Butler has the edelbrock springs listed incorrectly. They are single springs
I'm not too sure about that... Jegs also lists them as "spring type - double"
https://www.jegs.com/i/Edelbrock/350/5845/10002/-1

  #34  
Old 09-08-2021, 09:44 AM
Chris-Austria Chris-Austria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Fix View Post
Ship the springs to a shop? If the new cam won't get you too near coil bind you can do the math and shim what you have to increase seat pressure. What I had to do with the Crane springs, and why I'm not using 1.65 rockers.
I could ask Butler to check them before shipping.... I don't trust the 2 shops I know in the region who might have the tools.

  #35  
Old 09-08-2021, 10:30 AM
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Yes you are correct the edelbrock’s 5845s are a dual spring. I looked at the wrong column, springs per cylinder.

A compcams 978-16 spring would be a better choice than the 5845s. 400 lb/in spring rate versus the 460+ lb/in of the edelbrocks. Ideally you should be 370-400 on your spring rate for the new cam, 150 seat. The 5845’s have quite a bit higher spring rate than you need. Over 130+ higher spring rate than what you have now. Like killing a fly with a hammer. Collapsed lifter waiting to happen.

  #36  
Old 09-08-2021, 11:09 AM
Chris-Austria Chris-Austria is offline
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I just got mail from Butler and they confirm they are dual springs.
A little bit much, but the good side may be that they can weaken over time and still will not cause valve float

I have the lifters Butler sold me with the other HR cam... don't know which part number they are, but they were not cheap. (I didn't buy a set at the time)

  #37  
Old 09-13-2021, 09:01 AM
Chris-Austria Chris-Austria is offline
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When changing valve springs with heads on, how do you do it?
Should I just bring the piston to TDC and change springs or should I use compressed air? I saw a guy who put a rope into the spark plug hole... not sure which way is safe and best.

I'll get my tool and cam/springs by end of this week, so I'm about to make some plans on how to swap things without issues.

  #38  
Old 09-13-2021, 09:27 AM
Don 79 TA Don 79 TA is offline
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i run the butler e-heads with 73100 springs and a 3318/3319 comp cam on a 106 lsa 1.7 intake rockers and 1.65 exhaust
no problems
cam is done about 5700 anyway, so any rpms past that isn't a big deal for me
i am chipped to 6200, have gone to 6400, but can tell after 57-5800 cam is done (should say my combo is done with peaking/increasing power as Rpms go up) (its "windmilling")
i dont experience any valve floating issue
if i go more lift i'll need to change springs
but supposedly these springs are good for hdy/flat/hyd rollers
mine are 10+ years old now

  #39  
Old 09-13-2021, 09:31 AM
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Yes bring cylinder to TDC Depending on deck height and valve notches you may or may not has to use air or the rope trick, but one or the other helps.

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Skip Fix
1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
  #40  
Old 09-13-2021, 10:53 AM
Chris-Austria Chris-Austria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don 79 TA View Post
i run the butler e-heads with 73100 springs and a 3318/3319 comp cam on a 106 lsa 1.7 intake rockers and 1.65 exhaust
no problems
cam is done about 5700 anyway, so any rpms past that isn't a big deal for me
i am chipped to 6200, have gone to 6400, but can tell after 57-5800 cam is done (should say my combo is done with peaking/increasing power as Rpms go up) (its "windmilling")
i dont experience any valve floating issue
if i go more lift i'll need to change springs
but supposedly these springs are good for hdy/flat/hyd rollers
mine are 10+ years old now
Sounds like it should work for my combination as well... Butler said they would recommend going with the stiffer Edelbrock 5845. Still I'm not to happy to change the springs, but better now than later. I guess my cam will have power up to 6000 or maybe just a little bit more.. But however, I'll keep my limiter at 6000rpm or maybe go up 100-200rpm depending how it feels on the strip.

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