[pastry_chef]

If anyone wants to see another small 276 hyd roller with 110 LSA in a 455 with ported iron d-ports. Made 491 HP, almost 70 dyno pulls.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp...e-stuska-dyno/

Somehow Tom S managed 432 HP on Joe Sherman's dyno with the same cam and STOCK heads. Drove the car a few thousand miles on 91 California gas.

With a bit of competence, it can be done. I interact with lawyers nearly everyday that don't know their trade from their arse, so education and 'professional' mean chit.

Originally Posted by tom s

FYI,my 455 with a stock set of 48s,9.5 CR and a comp 276 hyd roller cam,224-230 on a 110 made 432 at 5100.Stock 69 QJ,stock unmolisted 69 intake,etc.Just a pump gas 455 RA III type build.Tom

[Vid]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

Don't think the OP wants a roller, maybe he will clarify.

I’m not opposed to a roller and I do realize the benefits but I am leaning toward a hft. It’s not so much a “money out of my wallet” concern, it’s more of a “how much total money am I going to put into this car” concern.

I’m sure that comment generated a few chuckles among you, but I’m trying to keep it what might be considered a “fair to decent driver condition” vehicle, lots of fun to drive without sinking too much $ into it.


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[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

If anyone wants to see another small 276 hyd roller with 110 LSA in a 455 with ported iron d-ports. Made 491 HP, almost 70 dyno pulls.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp...e-stuska-dyno/

Somehow Tom S managed 432 HP on Joe Sherman's dyno with the same cam and STOCK heads. Drove the car a few thousand miles on 91 California gas.

With a bit of competence, it can be done. I interact with lawyers nearly everyday that don't know their trade from their arse, so education and 'professional' mean chit.

Mike,
That is an unusual dyno sheet. Don't see a dyno correction of less than 1 very often.

Stan

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Mike,
That is an unusual dyno sheet. Don't see a dyno correction of less than 1 very often.

Stan

Agree. If I got the numbers right, 0.993

They have a nice shop in Lancaster, PA
https://www.racekrafters.com/machine-shop-services/

[Vid]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

If you really want to step up the game here is a dyno chart from a 455 build with the Old Faithful cam mentioned above moved out on a 114 LSA. The engine was topped with 250cfm #96 D port heads and 9.3 to 1 compression.

A very well chosen flat cam with high ratio rockers and Rhoads lifters wouldn't be far behind it on the dyno. For sure a butt-load more power than going with 28cc dished pistons, ported #62's then stuffing the 223/235/110 Howards cam in there.

The first dyno run is the same engine with a Comp 224/230/110 HR cam. Not only was the power not all that impressive it also pinged on the dyno when they tried throwing some timing at it. This is another by-product of going small on the cam and tight on the LSA in the big 455 engines. They are already cramming all their power in early and strong mid-range. Cams that make them better at that deal also raise dynamic compression enough that you can run into issues trying to manage pump gas in them....FWIW.....

Wow Cliff, those are some very impressive torque numbers for sure, who wouldn’t love that under their hood!

My dilemma seems to be that the bigger cams I’ve looked at usually call for 10:1 or higher CR, or seem like they would be more of a handful on the street than I’m wanting to contend with.

I’m open to suggestions on a hft cam from any manufacturer, which really is the point of my post. Howard’s doesn’t seem to have as many fans as I thought they would. I did ask Lunati about their 703 VooDoo but someone from Edelbrock emailed me back and said it was back ordered with no ETA in sight, so apparently the supply chain is a concern too. Not in a big hurry but just my luck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Vid

My dilemma seems to be that the bigger cams I’ve looked at usually call for 10:1 or higher CR

What is noted in catalogs is a very general guide. For what you will be doing you don't need more than 285 to 290 seat duration. With iron heads the compression you noted is fine.

You could also consider an Ultradyne 662-893-8022 (bulletcams.com)

Example
H30 intake lobe
283 @ .006
235 @ .050
146 @ .200
0.3334

A good exhaust lobe and centerlines would depend on where you end up with on the exhaust system.

[Cliff R]

"Wow Cliff, those are some very impressive torque numbers for sure, who wouldn’t love that under their hood!"

It's also a back to back comparison, same engine, same dyno, same operator, so the information provides us with a DIRECT comparison between two different cams, or the "apples to apples" all the naysayers typically ask for with this sort of thing.

Another reason I put that information up here is detonation. With good flowing heads matched with small cams on tight LSA's one can very quickly raise cylinder pressure high enough to run into issues with lower compression builds. I build engines and tune for a living so get to see it first hand. The other information posted above is meaningless, IMHO. If you Google hard enough with anything you'll eventually find someone or something that agrees with your twisted line of thinking. So it isn't really DIRECT information, 2nd or 3rd hand at best and the poster had no dog in any of those fights, nothing to do with the build, didn't interact with the engine builder, customer or end user, etc.

Don't get caught up in all that. I've had more than one person bring a troubled 455 Pontiac build here that would NOT manage pump gas with the XE268 or XR276HR cam in it even though the static compression ratio wasn't that high. If you want details just ask, because I actually worked with those engines here. Several were brought from quite a distance after the owner exhaust all efforts locally to get them to work well.

The engine in the dyno charts I provided actually idled better with the larger cam on a wider LSA in it. This happens because the wide LSA reduces overlap, and more effective at cylinder filling at idle because there will be less reversion. Plus they were able to increase the base timing, which is HUGE for idle quality especially with lower compression builds.

I've built a number of 455 Super Duty and HO engines here with lower compression. The "mildest" of the bunch will make 1hp/CID without much effort and very tame. I attached a dyno chart/cam specs below from one I did here using a 230/236/112 HR cam and Harland Sharp high ratio rocker arms. It idled dead smooth clear down to 600rpms with only 12 degrees base timing in it. The compression ratio was only just a little higher than stock as I zero decked the block and had the heads milled slightly to straighten them up.

Even with the 281/287, 230/236, 112LSA roller cam in the big 455 it was done just past 5000rpm's, bringing us back to my first comment about the little 223/235/110 flat cam not making power to 6000rpm's like their advertising is telling us.

The last dyno chart posted was just sent to me recently from a customer that had me custom tune his carb for dyno runs. He built it himself with my parts but wanted me to check the work. that engine used dished pistons and early small chamber unported iron heads and lower compression. He used a 236/242 HR cam in it on a wide LSA...........Cliff

[steve25]

Stan, that correction factor looks good to me, what sticks out to you?

[GTOLou]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

the smallest cam I'd even think about putting in a well thought out 455 build would be 230 @ .050"

Cliff has been typing this since I've been on this forum - he's got to be getting tired of it - this statement is as close to gospel when camming a 455 as there is..

[leeklm]

Originally Posted by GTOLou

Cliff has been typing this since I've been on this forum - he's got to be getting tired of it - this statement is as close to gospel when camming a 455 as there is..

Yeah, I was one of those guys installing too small of cam in a 455 before getting on this forum. Let's just say that experiment was short lived...

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[Cliff R]

I thought the idea here is to help folks. I do it by getting dirty and finding out first hand what works and what doesn't. I suppose I could use Google and the efforts of others and save myself some time and funds, but that information would NOT be nearly as accurate, and anyone wanting that sort of thing will probably have better search engine skills than I do anyhow.

Anyhow, with these things the BEST help you will ever get is one that kept you from making a piss-poor choice when selecting parts and making choices for your new engine build. No one wants to spend upwards or $5000-10,000 on a 455 engine build then end up with issues, running hot, overheating, pinging on pump gas, idles poorly, stinks at idle, runs down tons of fuel, doesn't make chit for power, etc.

The same thing applies to other parts as well.

I'd certainly want to know the deal BEFORE I took the plunge, rather that getting the engine all finished up then having to deal with all sorts of issues with it........FWIW.......Cliff

[OCMDGTO]

Vid, My builder(Gaydosh Performance/Baltimore) has been using his custom ground Howard's HFT cams in recent years. Myself and Mook on here have the same cam(I have D ports & he has round ports) and both dynoed 569/580hp and 630 tq so obviously a HFT can get it done. I think your 3.23s are a GREAT choice(get posi though).

[Steve C.]

Googled up.....

"Measuring dyno results from one facility to another is always going to be like measuring apples to oranges to some degree, regardless of the correction factor. Finding a reliable dyno shop takes research, patience and sometimes a little luck. Ask around."

It is silly to consider only dyno testing at KRE is valid and others are not relevant.

Side note, I know Rocky Rotella has used Howard's cams with good results.


.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Mike,
That is an unusual dyno sheet. Don't see a dyno correction of less than 1 very often.

Stan

Originally Posted by steve25

Stan, that correction factor looks good to me, what sticks out to you?

Steve,
There is nothing wrong with the correction factor. As I said it is just unusual.

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"Wow Cliff, those are some very impressive torque numbers for sure, who wouldn’t love that under their hood!"

It's also a back to back comparison, same engine, same dyno, same operator, so the information provides us with a DIRECT comparison between two different cams, or the "apples to apples" all the naysayers typically ask for with this sort of thing.

Another reason I put that information up here is detonation. With good flowing heads matched with small cams on tight LSA's one can very quickly raise cylinder pressure high enough to run into issues with lower compression builds. I build engines and tune for a living so get to see it first hand. The other information posted above is meaningless, IMHO. If you Google hard enough with anything you'll eventually find someone or something that agrees with your twisted line of thinking. So it isn't really DIRECT information, 2nd or 3rd hand at best and the poster had no dog in any of those fights, nothing to do with the build, didn't interact with the engine builder, customer or end user, etc.

Don't get caught up in all that. I've had more than one person bring a troubled 455 Pontiac build here that would NOT manage pump gas with the XE268 or XR276HR cam in it even though the static compression ratio wasn't that high. If you want details just ask, because I actually worked with those engines here. Several were brought from quite a distance after the owner exhaust all efforts locally to get them to work well.

The engine in the dyno charts I provided actually idled better with the larger cam on a wider LSA in it. This happens because the wide LSA reduces overlap, and more effective at cylinder filling at idle because there will be less reversion. Plus they were able to increase the base timing, which is HUGE for idle quality especially with lower compression builds.

I've built a number of 455 Super Duty and HO engines here with lower compression. The "mildest" of the bunch will make 1hp/CID without much effort and very tame. I attached a dyno chart/cam specs below from one I did here using a 230/236/112 HR cam and Harland Sharp high ratio rocker arms. It idled dead smooth clear down to 600rpms with only 12 degrees base timing in it. The compression ratio was only just a little higher than stock as I zero decked the block and had the heads milled slightly to straighten them up.

Even with the 281/287, 230/236, 112LSA roller cam in the big 455 it was done just past 5000rpm's, bringing us back to my first comment about the little 223/235/110 flat cam not making power to 6000rpm's like their advertising is telling us.

The last dyno chart posted was just sent to me recently from a customer that had me custom tune his carb for dyno runs. He built it himself with my parts but wanted me to check the work. that engine used dished pistons and early small chamber unported iron heads and lower compression. He used a 236/242 HR cam in it on a wide LSA...........Cliff

Don't know the dyno or anything else about those 2 dyno sheets. But on the middle sheet A/F ratio seems high and on the end sheet the bsfc seems high if running gas.

Stan

[Cliff R]

I don't know anything about that dyno either, which makes the cam testing even better since I use KRE's dyno and folks are quick to criticize me when I put number up here because it's my testing, like I'm bias or something...FW

There is ALWAYS someone quick to point that out just like Steve did a few posts above this one. So with that said is it better that those dyno runs came from another dyno and we don't know anything about them?


You have to keep in mind the story with the two dyno runs and why I got them sent here. The engine was built by the shop that owns that dyno for a customer. It was their first Pontiac 455. They ported the #96 heads and on their flow bench they got 250cfm intake flow. It was your common Eagle Crank and rods in a 400 block.

The shop owner and engine builder called Comp Cams for a cam recommendation, they sold him the Comp XR276HR cam, 224/230/110LSA.

Engine gets finished up, broken in on their dyno, and has some audible detonation on the first couple of pulls and they don't have the timing up where it should be yet and power is WAY down from what they were shooting for. I get a call about it here because EVERYONE right down to the guy taking out the trash is blaming the Q-jet.

I asked some questions, and told them it wasn't the carb, it was the cam. The phone went silent for a few seconds, then we finished up the conversation. They removed the Q-jet, bolted on their "dyno mule" Holley 850 carb, cranked up the timing and blew up the engine on the dyno requiring all the crank and all the rod bearings to be replaced!

So I get another call telling me all this and asking for a cam recommendation. I gave them the older Old Faithful lobe profiles and told them to have it done on a 114LSA and set the ICL at 110. About two weeks later I get a call, and they are amazed at how well it runs, idles better and how much more power it makes. They sent the Q-jet here for me to check out during the engine repair/cam swap and ran it for the final numbers shown.

Maybe they should have ran their Holley again, it may have made even more power after they got a better cam in it?..........Cliff

[Steve C.]

No criticism intended here. Just a little common sense knowing different dynos, different results. And that's not so bad, after all they are a tool and the information can still be relevant. Over 30+ years I've used three different dyno facilities. Try to choose wisely.

Onward thru the fog !


.

[Dragncar]

Listen to Cliff.
The idea any 223/230 cam in a 455 with iron heads is going to pull to 6K is laughable, not happening. With those big dish pistons, rattle bucket.
I have worked HO heads, milled .060 with a whole lot bigger cam than that and I shift 5500-5800, even lower on 1-2 shift. If I want it to run slower let it spin to 6K then shift.
You can not get enough air into a iron head 455 to make power at any real RPM.
OP, let Cliff pick out your cam. He lives and breaths what you are trying to do.

[Cliff R]

Thanks for the kind words.

I actually retired back in April and loving it.

Retirement to me is working 4am to 4pm Monday thru Thursday selling parts and 4am till noon on Fridays finishing up orders for the week and doing some free-tech calls.

I'm still building a few carbs here and there, no restoration work at all. I'm also opening up a couple of weekends a month for custom tuning. Have had some really NICE cars brought here and met some great folks. They were so nice they didn't even get mad when I fixed their issues and emptied their wallet!......LOL.....Cliff

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

The idea any 223/230 cam in a 455 with iron heads is going to pull to 6K is laughable

Yup, who said this exactly?

463 Pontiac target for 5300 RPM, so about an OF size cam. This is 2021 folks, I have a lot more than this.

Having less than optimal valve seat duration or area does not mean the engine won't pull the RPM. Seat duration needs to be close.

20 years ago I would just cam from what I'd seen on maybe 100 dyno sheets. It was never good enough in my mind.