[Formulabruce]

QUOTE>.ALVIN>"Also, is there any consideration by POCI “Lieutenants’” of possible “over saturation” by one contributor, or a handful at best?" END QUOTE<<
Having written for a car club publication in the past, I will say again , whats been said here already:
QUOTE: OLD BLUE 66> "As a former editor of our local newsletter, I can attest to this 100%. Its nearly impossible to get anyone to submit useful information that anyone would want to read". <END QUOTE
When I was a manager at a Large Nationwide business, I NEVER accepted complaints, like yours Alvin, WITHOUT a proposed REASONABLE Solution..
Time to be a Contributor, and stop being part of the problem...FIXES only happen with ACTION, NOT words. Lets see an article on Early Grand Am's, etc.. Lets see what ya got???
This isn't malicious, I'm not a POCI member, but I have seen negativity take good things down too many times by lots of words and no action...
Just because aftermarket points and condenser SUCK, doesnt mean the whole car sucks.

[gtohurstjudge]

Thanks for chiming in Don........I was beginning to feel like the Lone Ranger.
Thank you for all you do for POCI and the Pontiac hobby........please don't let these guys
that are bashing POCI ruin your outlook on your efforts. No matter how many drop out
it isn't going to go to zero because I'll be a member till I go out feet first. Smoke Signals
back in the 80's was a six page black and white newsletter and look at it now.....the best
national club publication in the old car hobby bar none.I guess it's my turn for them to rant
on my statements. Go at it guys.....believe me I can take it!

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

QUOTE>.ALVIN>"Also, is there any consideration by POCI “Lieutenants’” of possible “over saturation” by one contributor, or a handful at best?" END QUOTE<<
Having written for a car club publication in the past, I will say again , whats been said here already:
QUOTE: OLD BLUE 66> "As a former editor of our local newsletter, I can attest to this 100%. Its nearly impossible to get anyone to submit useful information that anyone would want to read". <END QUOTE
When I was a manager at a Large Nationwide business, I NEVER accepted complaints, like yours Alvin, WITHOUT a proposed REASONABLE Solution..
Time to be a Contributor, and stop being part of the problem...FIXES only happen with ACTION, NOT words. Lets see an article on Early Grand Am's, etc.. Lets see what ya got???
This isn't malicious, I'm not a POCI member, but I have seen negativity take good things down too many times by lots of words and no action...
Just because aftermarket points and condenser SUCK, doesnt mean the whole car sucks.

Interesting concept of demand for Solutions from a customer prior to accepting complaints. Exactly what “national business” and division was that?

Your expectation is for ME (or anyone considering membership) to contribute my time, money and content as a POTENTIAL customer before any commentary is considered worthy? WOW!!! Do you work in the Federal, State or Local government now?

Let’s talk fact. This topic has in many ways come full circle IMO.

Re-Read the OP, which IIRC was POCI – Comments, opinions? From someone who was simply attempting to go to the next level you suggest. If an interested party can’t talk to those in command, then who’s in charge or relations - You, Paul, PY?

Perhaps this is once again a Bull’s-eye focus to the POCI issues that have absolutely nothing to do with me. Put up or shut up and pay, again, seems to be the SOP message here.

Nope.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Deadhead

I am sure there are a good number of you who are members of this organization. Though that number is declining. I am interested to know everybody's thoughts on it. I applied for a board position there and am getting a run-around that is akin to something I would expect in a govt. setting. I am not looking to change the world here, but it looks to me like the numbers are unsustainable and without some younger (under 40) people coming in this thing is going to go the way of the dodo bird. I am not in the under 40 set, but I do remember it clearly.

The organization is asking for clues as to why the membership is declining, and I cited the bureaucracy as part of the problem as well as a website that was like an empty warehouse with a tech section where questions go unanswered for weeks months or never.

In thinking about the future of the organization, I was wondering if there was any interest or consideration pertaining to a collaboration with PY. This could be a benefit to both organizations as they seek to strengthen their membership and security in a world where magazines and private websites are increasingly under pressure. Not sure how this would work, but there is no way to know without some kind of dialog. There are strengths with both that could obviously benefit one another. Don't know if there is any 'history' here or not, and don't really care either. In interest of fostering the future of the hobby politics are not part of the equation - only a way to make sure we connect the knowledge with the need in keeping these bad boys on the road and shining in the sun at shows.

If folks share their experience and criticism here, it will also give them a better idea beyond the criticisms I poignantly illustrated in my re-application, which will likely land in File 13. But, that is beside the point. If they get a picture of what the problem is maybe someone more diplomatic than me will be able to help. I have just seen time and again that organizations die under their own organizational weight when that becomes more important than their original purpose. In this case that would be the joy of working on and driving Pontiacs not paperwork and parliamentary procedure.

The flood gates are now open!

Indeed.

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by Alvin

Interesting concept of demand for Solutions from a customer prior to accepting complaints.

The concept isnt new, or even mine, and It was in regard to EMPLOYEES that complain.
Complaints WITHOUT a solution are just DRAMA.
Any President or CEO will tell you that "some problems will go away with time". Those are the DRAMA problems..
Real Problems demand REAL solutions, and that means you're ( anyone complaining) either a PART of the Solution, or a part of the DRAMA.
Where are you??? I'm NOT expecting anything from you, but you complain about a product and a club, and in all your words offered up NOT ONE solution. ( feel free to put this in BOLD too)
When one Shines a "light" on a possible problem that STILL offers NO fix.
If you don't like it and WANT it better, then HELP.
PS the "Decline" was noted here by Chris and he showed what he and the staff at PY are doing to help with it. He has a great post about it.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=736478

[Old Blue 66]

As expected this thread has gone out of control. In this case there is one single instigator thats derailed it with negativity. I recommend that the thread be locked and closed simply out of respect for the organization that the thread topic is all about.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

The concept isnt new, or even mine, and It was in regard to EMPLOYEES that complain.
Complaints WITHOUT a solution are just DRAMA.
Any President or CEO will tell you that "some problems will go away with time". Those are the DRAMA problems..

• Your solution is that all who do not agree will go away with time? Is that the goal of POCIs board?

Real Problems demand REAL solutions, and that means you're ( anyone complaining) either a PART of the Solution, or a part of the DRAMA.

• Are dues paying people Employees or Customers? Using your comments, you see everyone as your employee.

Where are you??? I'm NOT expecting anything from you, but you complain about a product and a club, and in all your words offered up NOT ONE solution. ( feel free to put this in BOLD too)

• Can't you read the various comments on this topic? Start over again…from the beginning of the OP….

When one Shines a "light" on a possible problem that STILL offers NO fix. If you don't like it and WANT it better, then HELP.

PS the "Decline" was noted here by Chris and he showed what he and the staff at PY are doing to help with it. He has a great post about it.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=736478

Using your "anyone complaining" logic applied to constructive comments to this FREE forum does apply IMO.

Chris and company have proven they're pretty thick skinned and seeking to join everyone together in their still great forum here. Not so much with POCI.

I seriously doubt that PY's solution to any customer's complaint would be labeled "Drama" and also demand the customer provide the solution, do the research, pay out of pocket for development. Do you?

Again; Are dues paying people Employees or Customers? Using your comments, you see everyone as your employee.

I'm not an employee of POCI, PY, HPP, or Pontiac. Your solution is but another directive. Carry on on with your business as usual. BTW no need for the CCass link. Big diff is that PY is a FREE forum and a business that caters to CUSTOMERS.

Your “Any President or CEO will tell you that "some problems will go away with time" simply reinforce the death-spiral of POCI commented points mentioned previously in this thread.

Only "directive" I see is quite simple: "Fool Around and Get Hurt Don't Come Crying to Me." Again, good luck with that membership drive and those "some problems will go away with time."

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Old Blue 66

As expected this thread has gone out of control. In this case there is one single instigator thats derailed it with negativity. I recommend that the thread be locked and closed simply out of respect for the organization that the thread topic is all about.

How about simply moving it to the CH for continued commentary from all sides, as was the original intention? I for one do not expect everyone to agree with my points of view.

What is the fear? Contrary points of view?

[The Champ]

After reading the latest additions to this thread - I may just rejoin POCI and try and be part of the future of the organization.

I sure don't like the way some are dwelling on the past and complaining about an organization to which they don't belong to and have no intention of becoming a part of.

[Jerry H.]

8500 or so members is a substantial amount to me. I joined around 1980 because I was looking for information. I also joined the local club (which has now disbanded). I also joined the GTOAA around 1984. Back in those days these 'clubs' were the only way to get information about our cars. I attended local and national meets. And MOST IMPORTANT of all, I made friends. Lifetime friends, most that I stay in contact with today, from all over the country. Without the POCI and GTOAA I would have never met these fine folks.

Now we have the internet, and a lot of the information that folks are looking for is found on free websites. Is that a reason not to join a national club? If you want to stay at home and play on your computer all the time and never get your Pontiac out of your garage, then maybe it is. That's not an option for me. I've unintentionally let my subscription to the Smokes lapse, but I'm renewing it asap. I don't get to travel as much anymore, but if a Convention gets anywhere near me, I'll be there.

I still enjoy all the cars, but it's about all the friends I've made and all the new ones I hope to make in this hobby that makes it worthwhile.

BTW, I'm not a big fan of GMC's being part of POCI either, although I own 2 of them.

[GOAT WHORE]

Originally Posted by Alvin

I am a paid subscriber to HPP... and a huge A$$HOLE..

Fixed it for ya

[PunchT37]

Good or bad, problems or no problems, I believe most all of us have wasted $35.00 somewhere worse than POCI in a 365 day timeframe.

[Deadhead]

I have been in various successful businesses large and small over the years. I am also a student of publicly traded corporations. One thing is for certain, anyone who does not listen to their customer base or respond to the customer's complaints in a courteous manner is ultimately doomed. Especially in a world as connected as ours today. Expecting your CUSTOMER to come up with the solution prior to voicing their complaint is not a good business model except for the competition. The corporate graveyard is littered with companies that failed to innovate, rested on their laurels or the arrogance of thinking that there was no viable competition. It appears that there is some will at POCI to change certain aspects which have clearly been cause for complaint by numerous members.

Hopefully this discussion will point up the fact that some bending towards customer needs is required going forward. I made some suggestions prior to starting this thread and have others I intend to put forward that look like they could lead to some constructive changes. Provided that the desire for change is real enough. That will be obvious in the months to come.

Thanks to all who have provided constructive ideas. Before this thread reaches oblivion.

[Formulabruce]

To Deadhead.: My comments are geared to EMPLOYEES. A car club is NOT a "customer-business relationship" Why? you are paying 35 bucks for a magazine and a forum. I pay 35 bucks or more for Classic Trains magazine/year. Part of what "makes" POCI and other clubs is its members helping each other. Alvin looks at this as a TAKE TAKE perspective .Example>> I am the customer and what I say is always right. Thats fine when you are BUYING a intake and it shows up cracked.
POCI caters to a HOBBY, they are not a "for profit" business. This will require some give and take, and some intervention and new blood from time to time.
HPP has a a ZERO Dollar R&D budget, so articles written are FUNDED by the writer....
When you ( anyone with the "take" attitude) CEASE to be a customer and you realize that youll need to "GIVE" ( a solution , or contribution) for starters , then and only then, with you be able to reap the benefits of a Club.
Part of the fun in the hobby is sharing ideas and information. A club with such a vast variety of years of cars, and people, isnt going to please everyone, all the time.
I used the "Employee" reference to illustrate that Everyone is part of it and NOT a customer
A good attitude goes a long ways towards getting people to listen. As I said earlier people get more stubborn and set in their ways with age, but that can be worked with and around.
Just an FYI to all, I am SURE this Forum isnt free to Chris and NO "free ones" are free. Most have at least 10 "trackers" paying for your clicks on that site, and advertising.
The Mods here DONATE their time.
It seems a couple in this thread are helping the POCI membership INCREASE!!

[mike nixon]

Originally Posted by muscle_collector

i can assure you that had they never failed to send a reminder I would still be a member. as to who I talked to, I don't remember tim dye gave me a number to call and that guy gave me another number.

If you're still interested get me your info and I will get it to Paul.

Mike Nixon
POCI Great Lakes Board Member
POCI Tech Advisor Coordinator

[bird72]

as the rules allow creative "fonting" and second I don't care really, BUT food for thought: Large font, large red font, point by point counterpoint responses with skipped lines making the post long, may turn off people to the intended point just by the delivery..... I find myself skipping over most of them as they seem too much. I would hate to see this topic moved to the clubhouse, I check in, find it helpful, and it inspired me to want to join. I won't go to the Clubhouse so people like me get penalized by overkill passion here in the Lobby.

as for the topic, here is a question for the POCI spokespeople:

If there was only One Reason someone should join POCI, what is it?

[mike nixon]

I've Let this go without a lot of comment so far but will add this.

Normally a LOT of discussion goes into each and every decision the board makes. DO I as a director agree with all of the vote outcomes? No. BUT I don't have to. What I do have to do is put aside personal interests and represent the wishes of the people who voted me into this office.

If you as a member have an issue with what's going on with POCI then contact your directors, unless a seat is open there are 3 per district. contact them all, voice your opinion and ask for feedback.

If you aren't a member of the club for whatever reason and have an issue with it then join up and participate. If you just bitch on a non affiliated site then there's a good chance none of your concerns will be visited.

I can't speak for every director but I can speak for my outlook towards preforming director duties. I carefully consider each decision [ financial or otherwise] we vote on. I encourage members to run for the board positions.

I'll reiterate the above, If you don't like how it's being run then get involved and run for a seat OR contract your directors and have them bring it up to the rest of the board. Dynamics of every hobby change as time and generations pass by. Not everyone will be happy all the time but everyone should voice their opinions as to the directions that they wish for the hobby to move towards.

Mike Nixon
Great lakes Director
Tech Advisor Coordinator

[mike nixon]

Originally Posted by bird72

as the rules allow creative "fonting" and second I don't care really, BUT food for thought: Large font, large red font, point by point counterpoint responses with skipped lines making the post long, may turn off people to the intended point just by the delivery..... I find myself skipping over most of them as they seem too much. I would hate to see this topic moved to the clubhouse, I check in, find it helpful, and it inspired me to want to join. I won't go to the Clubhouse so people like me get penalized by overkill passion here in the Lobby.

as for the topic, here is a question for the POCI spokespeople:

If there was only One Reason someone should join POCI, what is it?

I can think of 3 reasons right off the bat, In no particular order


Smoke Signals is by far worth the price of membership.

The technical advice available is a huge asset.

The people I've met are top notch. Yes, there are a few that aren't, but by and large everyone I've met while doing this have been good people with the best interest of the hobby ate heart.

[Poncho60]

I probably shouldn't even post, but can't resist. IMO the POCI website took a major hit when the previous "owner" or whatever he was decided to take his toys and go home.....i.e. all the tech forum stuff disappeared. If that happened to this site what do you think the result would be? I don't have any particular issues w POCI, but I'm not really a "player" in the hobby like some of you are. However, I think the $35 for a year's membership is well worth it just to support the Pontiac "HOBBY". Given the cost of the hobby in general, I can't believe you can get bent out of shape on the membership fee. You can't even go to a movie for that amount if there's 2-3 people in you group! To be quite honest I'm not sure exactly everyone expects to get out of POCI and where all these major shortcomings are....but like I said I'm not really a player....although I was a member way back in the early 70's.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Poncho60

I probably shouldn't even post, but can't resist. IMO the POCI website took a major hit when the previous "owner" or whatever he was decided to take his toys and go home.....i.e. all the tech forum stuff disappeared. If that happened to this site what do you think the result would be? I don't have any particular issues w POCI, but I'm not really a "player" in the hobby like some of you are. However, I think the $35 for a year's membership is well worth it just to support the Pontiac "HOBBY". Given the cost of the hobby in general, I can't believe you can get bent out of shape on the membership fee. You can't even go to a movie for that amount if there's 2-3 people in you group! To be quite honest I'm not sure exactly everyone expects to get out of POCI and where all these major shortcomings are....but like I said I'm not really a player....although I was a member way back in the early 70's.

That is not what happened to the website.