[1969GPSJ]

Originally Posted by i82much

i'm no engine builder, but should't that thing have more than three holes

It's a generic example picture. The holes don't even come close to matching a poncho head bolt pattern.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by GoreMaker

Yes, that's the recommendation. Studs deform the main saddles differently than bolts. First, they grab more threads in the block than bolts do. They often grab ALL the threads, which is one of their advantages over bolts. Second, the clamping force is applied differently. In fact, in many cases, if you just switch from bolts to studs, there's a good chance the crank will bind at some point in its rotation. Keeping in mind that bearing clearance is only about 0.003", that doesn't give a lot of leeway for any extra distortion. Just a 0.001" distortion might cause issues with the oil film, even if the crank isn't binding. That's a 33% loss of clearance.

Old school SBC engines that Chevy crowd is so in love with. Oil pump bolts directly to the rear main cap with a single bolt to 65 ft. Lbs. Rear main bearing oil clearance changes .002" with the oil pump removed! Not kidding. It goes from .001" clearance to .003" when you put the pump on. I always line hone those flimsy pieces of crap with an oil pump stub piece installed. (cut off an old pump) Every engine family has it's issues. Ford FE blocks: I don't think they ever made one with a straight cam tunnel. Every one I work on has issues with at least 1 cam bearing.

[Tom Vaught]

Just my opinion, I would install all of the fasteners I will use in a build of the block
BEFORE I DO ANY HEADS OFF BLOCK MACHINING.

That way everything machined in the process are as close to the Actual Conditions
that the block will be in when assembled. That requires two Torque Plates but I
own Plates to do a 4.180 series block and a 4.330 series IA Block.
With two plates you can preload the block more accurately with two "HEADS" installed
like a normal engine.

Tom V.

I apologize, the 4.180 block is a street block. The 4.330 block is a short deck race block.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by 25stevem

Sorry, but a Pontiac block does not distort more then a SBC!

Many of the head bolt bosses in a SBC are tied right the heck on to the cylinder wall, none of the head bosses are that way on a factory Pontiac block.

Give me sonic test results first between two different make blocks before you make a blanket statement about cylinder wall distortion.

Dan,s exact words for PMDs design effort to separate the head bolt bosses for the bores, protecting them from distortion was "just someones idea that did not work". That is a quote, exact words from the man that was Jim Butlers first engine builder.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I have posted about the durability testing we have done in the past at work.
run a engine to failure on a engine dyno for thousands of engine hours.
Some engines lived to 2700 hours of testing on the dyno.

This is at hours of running at max hp plus 10% on the engine rpm.

Most times the engine failures were due to the connecting rods (Carrillo Connecting Rods) eventually had a failure. 2700 hours of hard testing BEFORE a failure. Be like running a million miles on a street engine.

The heads for many years now were made from Aluminum.

The Aluminum heads did NOT "loose it’s temper that it was hopefully made with and it’s hardness / compressibility changes".

Course we did not have the head off the block several times due to killing head gaskets, over-heating the engine, etc like some heads that were raced
at a strip.

Not saying that it could not happen, but the fault is not the head or its material but the history of the aluminum head and how it was abused.

In some drag racing cases, the aluminum head has been "fixed" several times
over the years without the need to be replaced.

Tom V.

Quite the opposite, Mr. Vaught. Aluminum “work hardens” over repeated heating and cooling cycles. EVERY aluminum component in an aircraft recip engine that is going to be welded is annealed, repaired then “normalized”(hardened) to prevent additional cracking in the new weld. Most of the aluminum heads for Pontiacs I’m familiar with are 356T6 alloy; it’s a very durable alloy. I haven’t heard of aluminum alloy “self-annealing” in the nearly forty years I’ve been dealing with it.

[Tom Vaught]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUr2hMIrDfo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohuoWdZ7fW0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9aqMknf_0g

I will go by what Mr Chris Razor says in his videos vs "others" comments.

Tom V.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Old school SBC engines that Chevy crowd is so in love with. Oil pump bolts directly to the rear main cap with a single bolt to 65 ft. Lbs. Rear main bearing oil clearance changes .002" with the oil pump removed! Not kidding. It goes from .001" clearance to .003" when you put the pump on. I always line hone those flimsy pieces of crap with an oil pump stub piece installed. (cut off an old pump) Every engine family has it's issues. Ford FE blocks: I don't think they ever made one with a straight cam tunnel. Every one I work on has issues with at least 1 cam bearing.

Mike, this is WHY I don’t understand people NOT checking cam bore sizing and alignment. I have personally align bored at least 1,000 cam tunnels on blocks known for having cam bores misaligned (6.9/7.3 IDIs, GM 6.2/6.5, all two stroke Detroits, 549/9.0 L Internationals, 8.2 Detroits). If a production facility that machines and builds in excess of 60,000 engines a year takes the time to check cam bore alignment and size it should tell the average “shade tree” engine builder it’s a good idea.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUr2hMIrDfo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohuoWdZ7fW0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9aqMknf_0g

I will go by what Mr Chris Razor says in his videos vs "others" comments.

Tom V.

Not about to argue with the man, but is he Aerospace certified? A former co-worker of mine was NASCAR certified, nuclear certified and Aerospace certified. Scott was one of the best welders I have ever known. In aerospace applications, he insisted on “normalizing” of a weld in aluminum, period.

[GoreMaker]

Update on this. Finally got my engine block back after machining. The machinist didn't think a torque plate would be needed or beneficial, but since I was paying for it to be done that way and I was providing the torque plate, he was more than happy to do it.

In his words: "I never would've believed it. You were totally right."

The cylinders are out of round by about 0.001" without the torque plate, but become perfectly round with it torqued down using the same fasteners I'll be using with the heads. He also confirmed that the aluminum torque plate from CCA Racing is of excellent quality. He works with many race engines where he uses torque plates regularly, and this one is right up there in quality. The only issue is that the bolt holes are too small to accommodate ARP head studs. The threaded portion fits fine, but the smooth shank is too big. He had to hone out the bolt holes to make them fit.

Keep in mind that this much benefit from a torque plate might be unique to 557 blocks like I'm working with, which is a weak casting to begin with. I don't know that there would be that much change with a 988 block or something else with more substantial main webs. I've been checking tolerances as I assemble the engine, and all the clearances are spot on so far, so the machinist did REAL good

[25stevem]

If your really after the absolute very best to compliment having gone through the process of getting a hold of and using a block plate then you need to go back to the piston stage of building the motor and get pistons made to use 1.5mm steel top rings.

The improved seal of these narrow rings all on there own is a big plus.

The next new needed step after boring the cylinders is to find a shop that has a Rottler H85 hone machine which I uses diamonds to put the final finish on the walls.

This machine does not load and distort the walls like all stone set ups do, you truly for once get perfect round cylinder bores!

This Rottler machine is untouchable as far as being state of the art right now.

Motors done this way with total seal gas ported rings have shown only 2% blowby which is amazing, the added benefit with this combination is that it only takes 1/2 hour to seat the rings in, and the side benefit of long wall and ring life even in racing conditions

If you have a motor currently running that you want to improve on you can get it honed .002” over in one of these H85 Rottler machines and then have your pistons coated to make that up, that .002”, and then simple re-ring the motor.

[GoreMaker]

LOL! No I'm not doing that. My engine is mostly assembled now

[mgarblik]

The single item I love about the Rottler honing machine is the ability to dwell the machine in any position during the honing stroke. This makes it MUCH easier to get a perfectly straight cylinder and remove any "hour glass" shape that is very hard to remove with an older Sunnen machine. As far as Diamond vs Vitrified stones, diamonds are faster and cleaner, no argument there. Easier for an inexperienced operator to get great results. The cost difference up front can be staggering. Over 10X the cost for a honing head vs vitrified stones. Sunnen perfected their fixed honing head in 1929. I think allot of very good racing engines have been built in the last 97 years. Rottler makes a nice machine and can make a marginal machinist pretty damn good. Old Sunnen machine, CV616, or even a CK 10 can produce a finished hone that will run right with the best $100K Rottler machine if used by an excellent, caring machinist. (that would not necessarily be me). It takes 4-5 hours to properly hone a block start to finish with an old Sunnen machine . That would be a 4-step plateau hone with torque plate. Finish +- .0001 taper and out of round. Same job can be performed in a Rottler diamond hone in about 1 1/2 hours. Depends on volume if a shop can really afford one.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by GoreMaker

Update on this. Finally got my engine block back after machining. The machinist didn't think a torque plate would be needed or beneficial, but since I was paying for it to be done that way and I was providing the torque plate, he was more than happy to do it.

In his words: "I never would've believed it. You were totally right."

The cylinders are out of round by about 0.001" without the torque plate, but become perfectly round with it torqued down using the same fasteners I'll be using with the heads. He also confirmed that the aluminum torque plate from CCA Racing is of excellent quality. He works with many race engines where he uses torque plates regularly, and this one is right up there in quality. The only issue is that the bolt holes are too small to accommodate ARP head studs. The threaded portion fits fine, but the smooth shank is too big. He had to hone out the bolt holes to make them fit.

Keep in mind that this much benefit from a torque plate might be unique to 557 blocks like I'm working with, which is a weak casting to begin with. I don't know that there would be that much change with a 988 block or something else with more substantial main webs. I've been checking tolerances as I assemble the engine, and all the clearances are spot on so far, so the machinist did REAL good

I found the same thing on a 70 455 block that was already bored and honed from another shop without a torque plate so I'd say what you found would likely be fairly typical between a torque plate and no torque plate.

When I took the block to Paul for a refresh, he always hones with a torque plate. Very first pass with a torque plate and there were very large areas of the cylinder where the hone wasn't even touching it. He ended up going another .002 larger on the hone, which actually gave us the piston clearance needed that it never had anyway, but there were still dark shadows in the bore where the hone just wasn't getting at.
He made it much better, but it still wasn't perfect. That's the difference from the previous machine shop not using the torque plate. In order to correct it completely he would have needed to hone it a bit more and go beyond the piston side clearance he was comfortable with.

I prefer the torque plate. As much as it costs to build these engines and buy these parts anymore, I like to make sure I'm giving it the best chance I can. If it helps longevity and ring seal, I'm all for it.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Not about to argue with the man, but is he Aerospace certified? A former co-worker of mine was NASCAR certified, nuclear certified and Aerospace certified. Scott was one of the best welders I have ever known. In aerospace applications, he insisted on “normalizing” of a weld in aluminum, period.

I believe that he is, along with the drag racing stuff.
He does aircraft head welding, commercial vehicle welding, for people like
Connie Coletti and his aircraft fleet and Doug Coletti with his smaller jet fleet.

Tom V.

I am not going to pass on "secret processes" that have been successful for him in his welding business.
Course I don't know any of them either. You drop the stuff off and he calls you when he has it ready.

Marcella is a great intake builder. Razor was "the man" when Marcella was in high school.

[Tim Corcoran]

Since we're talking about torque plates I had a .060 over 455 built many years ago by a Chevy guy and I specified the builder to use a torque plate. Turns out he didn't use one and years later when I was freshening the engine the machinist tried to hone it using a torque plate and he couldn't hone it because the cylinders were out of round. After removing the torque plate the hole was round again and he honed it without the torque plate. I will never build an engine street or strip without using one because it will improve the ring seal and reduce friction robbing horsepower. But the engine ran great for many years so it's not necessarily required to have a good running engine. The engine I am currently building will be bored and honed with a torque plate and the mains torqued. The machinist says it won't make a difference having the main caps torqued but I will have him do it anyhow.