[silverbullet07]

I started working on shimming my starter to the new hays flywheel and ran into a question. I have the oem starter. I inserted a small long punch into the hole in the bottom to push the gear toward the flywheel.

As I push it, most of the time the teeth to not align. Are you suppose to help the alignment by turning the gear a little as you push it toward the flywheel teeth? Is this ok?

If I do that, it seems to go a lot easier getting it in the teeth.

If this would be the correct procedure, I think I got it shimmed ok. I was able to get it shimmed using 2-1/16 shims and 1-1/64 which does not seem bad. I used a paper clip to measure the spacing of the tooth gap. I checked about 8 locations on one area tighter then the rest which required the 3rd 1/64 shim.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

As I push it, most of the time the teeth to not align. Are you suppose to help the alignment by turning the gear a little as you push it toward the flywheel teeth? Is this ok?

Yes, that is why teeth are bevel tipped. If you remove the one screw that attaches power, motor to solenoid, you can test engagement without the starter spinning.

It appears you did a fine job !


Once you wind it around a few times, to "mate" new parts, recheck clearance and also note if sound is "normal".

[A.W.Dille]

Normally I use any 1/8th inch drill bit inserted between the starter shaft and the flywheel teeth. If there is no resistance then I leave it. If it won't go then I shim to the desired clearance.

[gtofreek]

In the first pick it looks pretty good, but in the second pic, it looks like it could stand a slight bit more shim. What I am looking at is the steel cup on the armature shaft, just in front of the drive gear. The cup that is snapped over the wire clip in the groove in the shaft. When shimmed correctly, if you lay underneath the starter, and look up at that steel cup, and visualize sliding it back towards the drive gear, it should just clear the ring gear teeth. If the steel cup looks like it would touch the ring gear teeth, it needs more shim. In the second pic, it looks like the steel cup would hit the ring gear. I shimmed hundreds of starters with this method, and never needed the paper clip deal. This way works perfect for me everytime. What you can do with it the way it is, is start the engine, but hold the key for just a second longer after the engine starts, so the engine spins the starter driver for just split second. If you hear the starter makes a shrieking noise[sounds like "VEREEEET" sorry, it's hard to spell noises] during that split second the starter drive is being overrun, then you need more shim. I'm guessing you need another 1/32" shim. Could just be the angle of the pic too.

[silverbullet07]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

In the first pick it looks pretty good, but in the second pic, it looks like it could stand a slight bit more shim. What I am looking at is the steel cup on the armature shaft, just in front of the drive gear. The cup that is snapped over the wire clip in the groove in the shaft. When shimmed correctly, if you lay underneath the starter, and look up at that steel cup, and visualize sliding it back towards the drive gear, it should just clear the ring gear teeth. If the steel cup looks like it would touch the ring gear teeth, it needs more shim. In the second pic, it looks like the steel cup would hit the ring gear. I shimmed hundreds of starters with this method, and never needed the paper clip deal. This way works perfect for me everytime. What you can do with it the way it is, is start the engine, but hold the key for just a second longer after the engine starts, so the engine spins the starter driver for just split second. If you hear the starter makes a shrieking noise[sounds like "VEREEEET" sorry, it's hard to spell noises] during that split second the starter drive is being overrun, then you need more shim. I'm guessing you need another 1/32" shim. Could just be the angle of the pic too.

I think you are talking about the bushing in front of the pinion on the starter? I circled it on this photo to ensure that is what you are speaking of. With the new flywheel when I bolted it up with no shims it was hitting that slightly. I should now be away from it by at least 1/8" + 1/64. I can check tomorrow to actually see what the distance is between the two. It is probable the angle causing it to look closer.

[silverbullet07]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

As I push it, most of the time the teeth to not align. Are you suppose to help the alignment by turning the gear a little as you push it toward the flywheel teeth? Is this ok?

Yes, that is why teeth are bevel tipped. If you remove the one screw that attaches power, motor to solenoid, you can test engagement without the starter spinning.

It appears you did a fine job !


Once you wind it around a few times, to "mate" new parts, recheck clearance and also note if sound is "normal".

Can you elaborate more on testing the engagement of the gear with out the starter spinning? You mention to remove the screw? Are you saying to remove the heavy cable that attaches runs to the battery?

I read something similar where I would disconnect the positive battery cable. Leave the neg connected. Then run a 14g wire from the positive batter to the S connection of the coil?

That way I can see it engage as I connect it? Would this be correct and would I be able to verify the shim depth is good?

Thanks for you input.

[silverbullet07]

With 2-1/16 shims most of the areas I checked on the fly wheel the gap was good with the paper clip. One section seemed a little tight with the paper clip. So I added another 1 1/64 and that was good in that area. From my reading, you want the gap to be .020-.030. Now the other sections that was good are a little are a little wider. Maybe I should have found a wire around .025 to check the tightest area so I do not open the other areas wider. Just thinking out loud.

[Tempest]

when you think it is correct, brush some bright colored paint on the teeth of the starter, then try the starter, and look at the tooth pattern on the flywheel.

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by silverbullet07

I think you are talking about the bushing in front of the pinion on the starter? I circled it on this photo to ensure that is what you are speaking of. With the new flywheel when I bolted it up with no shims it was hitting that slightly. I should now be away from it by at least 1/8" + 1/64. I can check tomorrow to actually see what the distance is between the two. It is probable the angle causing it to look closer.

Yes, that is a steel cup that snaps over a wire clip that sits in a groove on the armature shaft. It's not a bushing. That should look like it would just clear the ring gear teeth if you could slide it over. You can't physically slide it over without unsnapping it from the wire clip, so you just visualize it moving over, and seeing if it would clear the teeth.

[silverbullet07]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

Yes, that is a steel cup that snaps over a wire clip that sits in a groove on the armature shaft. It's not a bushing. That should look like it would just clear the ring gear teeth if you could slide it over. You can't physically slide it over without unsnapping it from the wire clip, so you just visualize it moving over, and seeing if it would clear the teeth.

OK. I will check the distance but I do know it is clearing it because I made sure because it was rubbing. I will measure how much.

[TCSGTO]

I've seen instructions that state .030" from the root of the flywheel gear to the tip of the starter pinion tooth. I've also seen .030" backlash. These are two wildly different measurements. What's the comsensus on the proper clearance?

[silverbullet07]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

Yes, that is a steel cup that snaps over a wire clip that sits in a groove on the armature shaft. It's not a bushing. That should look like it would just clear the ring gear teeth if you could slide it over. You can't physically slide it over without unsnapping it from the wire clip, so you just visualize it moving over, and seeing if it would clear the teeth.

I checked the clearance this morning. The ring gear hangs over that cup slightly making it easy to measure. There is a .040 gap between the cup and ring gear. There is a little over 1/8 between the shaft and ring.

I found a .025 wire that I going to check those low/high spots again. Maybe I can take out the 1/64 shim depending on what I see.

[Cliff R]

Shimming a starter is one of the easiest things to do in this hobby. Most starters come with a shim kit, if not they are readily available at NAPA and most other parts stores. At this point in my career I have a tool box drawer full of them.

Install the starter and hit the key to engage it. If it doesn't make any unusual noise and engages and turns the engine fine your are done. If it hits and grinds, or engages and make noise while turning, add (thin) shims one at a time repeating this procedure until it is engages and doesn't make any unusual noises.

Don't be surprised if you have to add quite a few shims when doing this with a Pontiac engine, they seem to be further off the mark than most other makes for some reason. I've even ran into a few 428's where I had to actually make a custom/thick shim as the stack of thin shims was getting a little to much for my liking.

You can always go thru all the measurement stuff as mentioned above (much easier deal if you have a lift to stand under the vehicle), either way will get you to the same end result.......Cliff

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by silverbullet07

I checked the clearance this morning. The ring gear hangs over that cup slightly making it easy to measure. There is a .040 gap between the cup and ring gear. There is a little over 1/8 between the shaft and ring.

I found a .025 wire that I going to check those low/high spots again. Maybe I can take out the 1/64 shim depending on what I see.

Sounds like you should be real close.

[silverbullet07]

Just wanted to say thanks for everyone's help. I must have got the starter shimmed correctly. No unusual noises and started great.