[wreckmastr]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Simple the Roots style blower wins for cosmetic appeal.

Turbo will be that fastest in the right hands.

Pro-charger style blowers have comparable bottom end of the Roots style blowers and add a bunch of weight in the wrong place.

Maybe if you're on slicks it is, But if you're on radials it's exactly where you want it.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Oooh young George 🙄

I wish!



GTO George

[opeliac]

Cast Iron stock block and heads, twin turbos, goes 6.95@2950lbs in 1996...

I would love to see someone duplicate that with ANY power adder...

[cgeise]

When I ran the turbo car it was really consistent and pretty easy on parts -- but I know I was leaving a lot on the table as I was keeping the boost low compared to others -- If I ever did a power adder again -- Turbo would be the way to go --

[Palbykin]

I think it depends on what you want.
Hp turbo the most power.
Centrifugal
Roots
Nitrous

If you want simple roots with carb not much power. Good bracket stuff.

If you want like 10hp/ per ci. Turbos are the way to go.
Bracket racing is about consistency. I have no interest.
Heads up on a pro tree 1/4 at a time.
To each his own.
Cheers Marty
P.s watch out for Gary Cyan 234 @ Norwalk first outing. Very impressive.

[455firebird1969]

Originally Posted by cgeise

When I ran the turbo car it was really consistent and pretty easy on parts -- but I know I was leaving a lot on the table as I was keeping the boost low compared to others -- If I ever did a power adder again -- Turbo would be thee
way to go --

Yeah, running a Real Pontiac…lol
That episode when you ran your real live “455 style” Pontiac was awesome.

[Scott Stoneburg]

Turbos make awesome power from a pretty mild combo, my experience is with my brothers Ford, but, if they made more power at the top level of racing wouldnt Top Fuel be using them or are there rules against them in those classes. I hear that the High end turbo cars are making in the 4000 HP range. But T.F. dragster makes near 10,000 right?

[dragracerx2813]

Originally Posted by Scott Stoneburg

Turbos make awesome power from a pretty mild combo, my experience is with my brothers Ford, but, if they made more power at the top level of racing wouldnt Top Fuel be using them or are there rules against them in those classes. I hear that the High end turbo cars are making in the 4000 HP range. But T.F. dragster makes near 10,000 right?

They tried running turbo years ago in top fuel. One of the problems the turbo has , was the fact they can’t run the zombie headers. They blower cars can. The exhaust from the zoomies really push the car down and help it to maintain traction. You just can’t get that with a turbo.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by dragracerx2813

They tried running turbo years ago in top fuel. One of the problems the turbo has , was the fact they can’t run the zombie headers. They blower cars can. The exhaust from the zoomies really push the car down and help it to maintain traction. You just can’t get that with a turbo.

Lot of truth there.

There is some force exiting the turbo discharge. Over 150 lbs of force at max rpm. Enough on a single turbo installation to cause the car to be unstable at 190 mph and make a sharp left hand turn into the other drivers path. One minute Steve Grebeck from Detroit was alive and the next he was dead and burning in the car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ATs6lBQtFs

The exhaust was only pointing out the right side of the car.

Tom V.

[JSchmitz]

Top Fuel headers are afterburners. It would be really cool to change the angle of them as it goes down track to take full advantage of the force vector.

[Stan Weiss]

A few years ago the Funny Cars were playing with the header angle and it was improving performance. NHRA stepped in and stopped it. I don't remember the exact years this happened. This is from the 2020 NHRA rule book.

Stan

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

A few years ago the Funny Cars were playing with the header angle and it was improving performance. NHRA stepped in and stopped it. I don't remember the exact years this happened. This is from the 2020 NHRA rule book.

Stan

That's interesting and proof of it's significance.

[Tom Vaught]

The driver was killed because of several reasons:

1) The exhaust was pointing out the right side of the vehicle

2) The exhaust at full boost had over 150 lb of force trying the turn the car right
(push the rear of the car LEFT) at max speed.

3) The driver, from looking at the video many times with the Turbo Engineers who supplied the turbo, thought he was going into the right wall and yanked the steering wheel HARD LEFT.

4) This caused him to cross the centerline and be impacted by the slower race car in
the left lane and throwing the car into the opposite wall and causing the fuel system to
set the car on fire. The car in the left lane fortunately had a very good cage in the car and the driver was not seriously hurt.

5) The driver in the right lane was probably already dead but the fireball and smoke did not help his chances of survival in any case.

Stan is absolutely correct that the fast funny cars did see a greater down force with the correct angles.

You will notice that if you look at old pictures of Rodney and Travis 63 tempest that the exhaust from the turbos was designed (by passing thru the hood) to provide more downforce evenly to the car at max speed. They got that info from a Turbo Engineer who spent time in the Lockheed wind tunnel.

Tom V.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Lot of truth there.

There is some force exiting the turbo discharge. Over 150 lbs of force at max rpm. Enough on a single turbo installation to cause the car to be unstable at 190 mph and make a sharp left hand turn into the other drivers path. One minute Steve Grebeck from Detroit was alive and the next he was dead and burning in the car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ATs6lBQtFs

The exhaust was only pointing out the right side of the car.

Tom V.

Idk where that info came from about that crash?
I’ve hung out w Chris Benjamin ( tuner) since the early 90s, who worked for turbo people. He worked there when racin Jason Betwarda passed away which was close to the Steve Grebek (time wise) crash as well . (Jason’s turbo is on my car and I’m damn proud to have it) I never heard anything about Steve Grebecks car crash having anything to do with turbo exhaust, Nor do I think that has Anything, to do with the crash. Jason’s crash had to do with tires he was testing from what I recall. I’ll ask Chris about the other.
Those cars were so powerful for the time, way ahead of anything else. Turbo people and dutwieler were behind a lot of that technology But it really wasn’t new it just leaped way way ahead by them!
Bugatti had turbos in 1929! Ohio George Montgomery won the 1970 nationals with a turbo mustang!

There’s a lot of guys dumping exhaust out one side at high speeds and that wasn’t the only pass made like that. I doubt that was the cause . More likely the car just got loose unless you know otherwise
As a fact?

Anyway those guys were true pioneers of the sport and turbocharging. They are the reason I started teaching guys about turbos and especially low budget combos .

This is how I sized my first turbo and was laughed at by many publicly. They said it would never run, Ram 10.00 flat off the trailer !
I compared airflow : no charts no graphs
Gas car is 428/455 x 6000 Diesel = 900 x3000 rpm. Obvious choice Detroit diesel turbo. They said you can’t size a turbo that way. Lol. I had 10 guys running that turbo on Pontiacs in a year!
Very successfully I might add. My car Exactly the way I won the Pontiac day event at E town is still running today without even a spark plug Change! I put that fuel injection on the night before the race and everyone said it wouldn’t even run, never mind win. Lol guessing that was 2005 or 2006 ?

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

The driver was killed because of several reasons:

1) The exhaust was pointing out the right side of the vehicle

2) The exhaust at full boost had over 150 lb of force trying the turn the car right
(push the rear of the car LEFT) at max speed.

3) The driver, from looking at the video many times with the Turbo Engineers who supplied the turbo, thought he was going into the right wall and yanked the steering wheel HARD LEFT.

4) This caused him to cross the centerline and be impacted by the slower race car in
the left lane and throwing the car into the opposite wall and causing the fuel system to
set the car on fire. The car in the left lane fortunately had a very good cage in the car and the driver was not seriously hurt.

5) The driver in the right lane was probably already dead but the fireball and smoke did not help his chances of survival in any case.

Stan is absolutely correct that the fast funny cars did see a greater down force with the correct angles.

You will notice that if you look at old pictures of Rodney and Travis 63 tempest that the exhaust from the turbos was designed (by passing thru the hood) to provide more downforce evenly to the car at max speed. They got that info from a Turbo Engineer who spent time in the Lockheed wind tunnel.

Tom V.

Engineers I fixed much of their stuff on construction sites my whole life . That word doesn’t hold a lot of weight w me as a glowing review of their work . Paper is paper and real world is real world ....

Engineers come up with the start point just fine, but it ain’t the gospel I can tell you that
For sure .

[Stan Weiss]

Happiness is just a turbocharger away!
960 HP @ 11 psi, 9.70 at 146.
Iron heads, iron stock 2 bolt block , stock crank, 9 years haven't even changed a spark plug!

Can you give me some information on your combination. I would like to add it to this list.

Using PMD Heads and Blocks - Power Adders
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_pmd.htm

Stan

[turbo69bird]

For those who don’t know who Racin Jason Betwarda was He was the man ! Sadly passed at Lebanon valley dragway . Pushed turbocharging
To its limits and way way into the future .

And he is definitely the reason I shared turbocharging w so many people over at PZ back in 2005 .
Chris Benjamin having known and raced w him and him having worked at turbo people and Us hanging out and seeing him developing his turbo combo is what got me to do it w Pontiacs. (In a much different way though those were big dollar combos ) I built budget combos on pump gas for street use and 9 second passes as a goal.


https://youtu.be/pfYvBg9fhNg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_rZXvy_nbU

https://youtu.be/36ibEKDwFUk

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Can you give me some information on your combination. I would like to add it to this list.

Using PMD Heads and Blocks - Power Adders
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_pmd.htm

Stan

Sure I can it’s really very simple and all the info is on Pontiac zone but will gladly reiterate it here.

Currently a 455 (though 440 works best in my opinion) stock 2 bolt block, stock cast Pontiac factory crank, eagle rods, je off the shelf pistons , my cam (solid lifter no roller ) by cam motion, no stud girdles lifter bore braces or any of that crap. Lol. Just hard block half way up and ARP studs! Cosmetic head gaskets, iron 6X heads lightly ported by me. (Though it didn’t really run any faster than unported just required less boost) Harland sharp roller rockers. ARP head studs! Victor jr intake w gen 7 dfi. Though I ran FASTER w an 850 Holley on a performer (everyone said a dual plane wouldn’t work)
My headers (originals were made in one night out of two sets of three tube black jacks) whole combo o was put together by me and Chris Benjamin locked in my garage for 48hrs one test rub down my street the ram 10.00 off the trailer w about 8 psi boost.

I got greedy and put 30 psi to it the first day and split the block but ran 122 in the eight. Coasted to a 10 Sec pass . Lol. After that I wanted to prove it was reliable and a good bracket combo so I ran it at 11 psi running around 9.60 to 9.70 off the door brake w a real easy leave of 161 60ft. Car broke no oarts EVER after that nothing.
Turbo forgot about that. Lol. Best bang for the buck is the Chinese turbos but you want to size based off the BWs475 which is the ok’d Detroit turbo I started with w a ETT wheel which gave it a broader range . I can’t even remember the original number 2345 maybe . It was similar to T88 thumper which is what is in my car now .
Only because it was Jason’s turbo and its nostalgic for me otherwise I’d run a cheap cheap .turbo .

Boost is a really lousy measurement used it’s a measurement of blockage/ restriction NOT airflow . So what your really measuring is back up in the engine so a better flowing engine will make the same power at less boost. But it’s really likely flowing the same air in CFM .

Want to check out something awesome!! Look at turbo Louie on PZ dint know if he’s here. His 4 cyl Pontiac has been tested to its limits . Tom V knows him too. Great guy great combo. !

has pint runs a similar set up to me on here as well w some slight changes also a cool combo.
Kristen w his GTO and 70bird also similar combos as I recall all part of the original group at PZ from way back .

[turbo69bird]

A lot of people don’t know it but Dutwieler did Pontiacs (non turbo as far as I know) way back.

[Tom Vaught]

Turbo69bird, I sent you a PM, I don't need another GTOGEORGE type guy from PZ attacking my posts. All of the info you requested is in the PM.

Since you came on this site, today, you have made 5 GTOGEORGE type posts in 1 hour, bragged yourself up, and questioned the Borg Warner Director of Turbo Engineering request made shortly after Steve Grebecks untimely death.

Not bad.

Tom V.