[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

... I never lie...

Umm... okay. What prompts you to say that?

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

OK, I am not a 'boost" guy.
I bet you could run 65lbs boost with stock D Ports and you could not make enough cylinder pressure to hurt a aftermarket block.
Make us one with a LS1 bottom end...... I say the head made it easier for the block to fail.

You run 65 lbs of boost in a Pontiac engine you better have your check book handy!!



GTO George

[Dragncar]

Jack, I would not post something like what happened to the block If I did not believe it to be true. No reason to think Dave made it up. Everyone has said something that was not true before. People make mistakes. But its when you knowing do it that's the worst. I hate liars. Once you do that your word means nothing.
George, you are a boost guy. Why couldn't you just clarify my previous post. I don't think you could shove enough air through a 205cfm head to hurt a IA2. Might be wrong. Tell me why.

[GTOGEORGE]

Supposedly Marty P ran high 6's with d-port heads that takes a lot of HP to do that. The street guys run a ton of boost with d-ports.
I hate making long posts!

GTO George

[Stan Weiss]

So you have concluded that the combination with less boost and a higher flowing head produces more cylinder pressure. Would you happen to know what the blower efficiency is for both cases? Is either or both running an inter cooler? What it comes down to, one cubic foot of air may not be the same as another cubic foot of air. Try looking at density ratio calculations sometime.

Stan

[mgarblik]

There are allot of numbers being thrown around and allot of variables concerning measured boost, air density, you name it. I think we all agree the goal for these heavy hitters is to be the fastest of the fast. Steve Dales car ran a .985 60 ft. and a 2.59 330 ft. on the track that day during what I understand was a test and tune. That's just incredible for a Pontiac, period. I hope everyone realizes that although we concentrate on 1/4 mile times and trap speeds at the quarter and that is the ultimate yardstick, these guys deserve genuine congratulations for their effort so far. From what I was able to find, these incremental times are the quickest EVER for any Pontiac powered vehicle. I know from playing this game that they were hoping for several full passes with these kind of initial increments. The trap speeds would have approached 250 MPH and with traction ET's certainly would have been in the 5.80's. It didn't happen this time but eventually they will get there. There is a high price to be paid when you are playing in uncharted territory. Congratulations again for the super quick increments.

[Flyin79bird]

Pretty sure Butler and Justin have said their motors are in the 11:1 range since they are running methanol. Anyway you look at it, boost is boost and both are making steam.

[Tom Vaught]

I go by what Travis has mentioned to me over the years on the Butler/Quillen Turbo Engine durability deal. They ran the IA-1 block until they sold it to John Welter without issues to the block. Welter ran the same block for several years.

So they now run a IA-2 block and say that they have no block issues but want to run more boost.

Their deal is a Twin Turbo deal, Steve's deal is different. Welters deal is different as was Coopers deal.

You guys are starting to sound like the Farmers and the What boys.

It was nice and quiet around here for a period of time. Why don't we forget the trash talk and let it go.

I hope everyone runs quicker and faster this year.

Tom V.

[twooldgoats]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

..... Steve Dales car ran a .985 60 ft. and a 2.59 330 ft. on the track that day during what I understand was a test and tune. That's just incredible for a Pontiac, period......

Yikes!!

Jim

[Scott Roberts]

The 330' time is right inline with current NHRA top alcohol funny cars. Nice numbers for sure. And that is a nice 60' for a screw blower..they typically don't 60' as well as a roots blower..

[Dragncar]

Stan, yes I have. Do I know, hell no. just a semi educated guess. The difference in boost is small and the difference in flow is large. Hard to stuff a ton of boost/flow through a small hole. Intercooler? don't know, you tell me.
mgarblik, those are the numbers thrown at me in the phone call. Hard to process because its not the world I live in but Dave seemed to be jumping out of his socks/happy/proud of it. Now........ it seems to be justified.
Question, you run far less static CR than the TA guys. Is that because you run some nitro in them ix?. It expands that much more in the cylinder than alcohol or gas ?
Pontiac guys should be waving the flag vs infighting.
Who are the "What Boys". Never heard of them.

[mgarblik]

Our static compression is around 6:1. The pro cars, 8000-10,000 HP cars run around 7:1. It's another of those tightly held secrets. Nitro is our fuel, 90% with a dash of alcohol used for tuning purposes. Ratio was arrived at by spending considerable time around the nostalgia nitro guys, asking questions, making friends, immersing ourselves in these type cars. As we get our tune-up closer to ideal, we can possibly bump up the compression slightly. Eric has studied the nature of the fuel itself and can possibly add a more scientific explanation. The nitro is very hard to light off and takes approx. 3 times as long to create peak cylinder pressure as gasoline. That's why it takes a 44 amp magneto to light it and 2 spark plugs in the case of a hemi. Also why the "big show cars" may run 70 degrees or more ignition lead to get the fuel burning. Our car uses approx. 13 gallons of fuel to make a run. At idle, most goes through the engine as a liquid, cooling the engine as some goes through the phase change from liquid to vapor. It's really very difficult to get it just right, you need the liquid at idle, but when you leave the line, you need it to stay lit to make power and phase change as much nitro to vapor to produce power. That's why you see nitro cars drop a cylinder or two during a run sometimes and a shower of fuel spray out the pipe. If you set it up lean, it stay's lit and uses the pistons for fuel during the run and you have a destroyed engine every run. Too fat, you put out a cylinder now and then. That's the battle we are fighting now. The wedge head and 1 spark plug make this more difficult. Now you know why 99% of these cars are hemi. 3 years ago, we hired Jerry Newman, an expert tuner of nitro cars with experience going back to the 1960's. Even he has been challenged by our Pontiac engine. Fortunately, he seems to enjoy it and is not giving up. We plan to run more and harder in 2016.

[GTOGEORGE]

13 gallons a pass........damn that's just amazing, I thought I went through a lot 4 gallons per pass (about $18+ a pass), 6 to 10rounds a day not counting timed runs adds up! Lots of money let me tell ya it cost money to go fast! Nitro a gallon is expensive......wouldn't even want to think about it!



GTO George

[mechanickeith]

Last time I checked,, Nitro was around 50-55 bucks a gallon! X13= $715 a pass for fuel only. Then there are the consumables, 8 spark plugs per pass, 16-18 quarts of oil & anything else that doesn't survive the last pass. Not a cheap class to race in for sure.

[mgarblik]

The vast majority of the fuel is used during the roll up to the water, the burnout and the back-up/staging. We have studied video second by second of the pro's and are trying to cut down the time that takes us to reduce heat and oil dilution. Slight good news, nitro prices have gone down about 30% from their peak when NHRA had a virtual lock on the supply and could control the cost. It's still expensive, but we don't make 10 runs at an event like you do qualifying and working your way through a ladder. Good luck next year. Just saw your post, Keith. Nitro is $22-30 a gallon in drums now. NHRA sanctioned fuel may have been as high as you said, I don't know. It's expensive to run these cars, that's true. The cost doesn't allow us to run as many events a year as we did with the Grocery Getter. We use 20-25 gallons of oil in a weekend. That could really add up. We are so thankful to the product sponsors we do have because without them, we probably couldn't race. Valvoline helps us with oil, Federal Mogul with bearings and spark plugs and many others. It's a true partnership, we do allot for them and hope they are proud of our efforts.

[Elarson]

I'll start a new thread about nitro, so this one can concentrate on the new head.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=1#post5527867


Eric

[Dragncar]

mgarblik , Earlson. Thanks. For making the thread and helping make sure the other one stays on track.
Now China?? Why does the fuel come from there. That is strange?
You know................these guys make heads with 2 plugs!
OK, maybe in the other thread.

[Goatracer1]

Please don't call me an idiot. I'm not. This is just a question that has bothered me for sometime. If people are spending a lot of time and money trying to build improved heads for our Pontiacs has anyone considered an OHC head conversion? I know it would be expensive but think of all the valve problems it would cure. It just seems to me there is a lot of work going into old technology. Thanks for your time.

[3fastgtos]

Originally Posted by Goatracer1

Please don't call me an idiot. I'm not. This is just a question that has bothered me for sometime. If people are spending a lot of time and money trying to build improved heads for our Pontiacs has anyone considered an OHC head conversion? I know it would be expensive but think of all the valve problems it would cure. It just seems to me there is a lot of work going into old technology. Thanks for your time.

I remember seeing pictures of some in a Pontiac magazine maybe 10 or 15 years ago. Somebody had made some, I've always wondered what ever happened with them. Not a dumb question at all, thanks for bringing it up.

[sdbob]

A machinist back in 67 era did a set for his Firebird.Article was in SS DI.Never heard much afterwords.