[InjunNick]

Sorry a new guy here.......
I am looking to by a GTO and I am seeing more and more of them with NOM in them and some guys are saying that their's is a RAIII.
Is there any clue, like even a screw hole in the fire wall for someting (I have no IDEA), I am just looking for someting that was common that is hard to reproduce or add to a car?

I don't want to spend $$$$ to find out it isn't what I was told and I am thinking if I pay PHS for a document on the car I could be nickel and dimed to death until I find a real goat.
I am not looking to specificaly by a HO or RA car, I just want to know If the whole SHEEP is being thrown at me instead of the wool over my eyes....

Thanks for all that reply......

[gtoformula]

If you are looking for a "diamond in the rough" from someone who isn't familiar with GTO's then you will need to go to PHS. Most folks that have a GTO will probably have already purchased the PHS documentation or received it from the previous owner. I'd gladly spend the PHS money instead of buying a car and find out that it wasn't what it was represented to be. If you find a car that doesn't have documentation and is being offered at a low price then you need to be able to be ready to move fast. It might be a loser, but if it's the real deal then it won't last long.

[Jack Peters]

Welcome to PY and hope your time here is helpful to you.

It deptnds on the year. from'67-'71 all GTO's began their vin with 242. If you go here http://www.wallaceracing.com there will be other code you can decipher.

Outiside of going to PHS and paying for their service there is no for sure way to tell what originally came on the car and what has been changed/added to the car.

The engines do have on the front of the block on the passenger side below the head and just to the right(passenger) side of the water pump/timing chain housing will be a 2 letter/number code, a vin and a serial number for the engine. If the engine is original to the car the vin # will match the vin # on the vehicle. The 2 letter/number code will tell you what the engine was for that year.

If the numbers don't match check back by the distributor and you will see the year cast into the block. Check that against the 2 letter/number code and it will tell you what year, carb, hp, trans that the engine came from.

Plenty of information there at Wallace Racing and I think there is one on this site also.

Happy hunting. AND, don't be afraid to ask questions. We were all in your position at one time.

[ANDYA]

Before the days of PHS guys relied on the build sheets to tell if a car was original. Plus years ago (15yrs or more) there were more cars around that were original with alot less fakes. Today the only way to go is PHS unless your buying the car from the original owner or second owner and the car has all original documentation. Even then I would get the PHS anyway. People who are selling legitimate GTO's have allready gotten the PHS to show you when you go see the car. For those who don't ask them if they would share the expense to get the PHS and if the car is not what he claims then he should pay for it.

[PB]

Welcome to PY! Here is a thread with pictures on what Jack was saying about engine codes. Check it out here:
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=516425

Each year has different codes. I don't have a web site off the top of my head that lists all the codes. I think you can get a lot of codes from classicalpontiac.com and click on restoration. There are other sites too, and most guys here can help decipher codes for you too if you can't. Good Luck with your purchase....looking for any particular year?

[InjunNick]

Looking for a 67-70, I know that may be too many and I should narrow it down, but I cant, they each have something I like and I really can't decide....
I have been following GTO's for many years, infact my buddy in High Scool bought a new 68 and I almost bought a new 69 vert in my senior year, I ended up buying a Charger and then I bought a new 73 GTO in 73. Yes I am an old fart, what can I say......
I have been into Mopars all these years and I decided I want to have a GTO again, so I am looking.
As far as knowing what the market is like, I have no Idea, I was looking at a 68 with NOM for 22K and the guys on the 68-69 area said it is way too much. I was looking at a 70 NOM for 14.5K and it is cobbled together as in the engine is out of a 68 Bonn and the tans shifter in the car is a His/Hers (I am sure that was not available in 70, was it).
The original color was Green and now it is white......

Tell me, what should I be able to buy with, 15K, 20K or 25K, I am asking could it be original, or will it buy a restored car, and yes, I know that restored in everyones eyes are different?

I want to buy a real nice car, I don't want to restore a car again, I don't mind fixing a few things, but I would rather enjoy it than tear it apart......

thanks again to all that reply........

[InjunNick]

Tell me about 71 and 72 GTO's,are they special in any way, I know the HP is way down on these but are they worth a look or should I stay after the other yrs?

[PB]

Originally Posted by InjunNick

Tell me about 71 and 72 GTO's,are they special in any way, I know the HP is way down on these but are they worth a look or should I stay after the other yrs?

Well..I am biased toward them, but these years are better "driving" cars as the suspensions are MUCH better than pre 70 years. The HP is down because Pontiac changed their HP rating in 72. They used to be Gross HP ratings and switched to Net in 72. Trying to get around some of the new gov't regulations. They may be lower than previous years, but they are in comparison, probably more actual HP than earlier years. They are no slouches by any means. In 72, a GTO was an option on a lemans, so you NEED PHS to be sure it is an actual GTO optioned lemans. Go with what you like. You should be able to get a numbers matching original car that is restored nicely for your price ranges listed.

[InjunNick]

So are you saying that the 71 300hp rated motors will have similar power to the 68-70 350hp rated motors or did I miss the point you made!

[getmygoat]

In 72 they changed the horsepower rating from gross (at the flywheel) to net (at the rear wheels)... so don't compare apples and oranges.

Also, the 70 and earlier motors got much of their horsepower from high compression, which you can't run on today's gas anyway.... so the bottom line is, don't worry about horsepower differences between the 60's and 70's GTO's..... It doesn't really matter anymore, especially since most all motors have been rebuilt, and have all kinds of variation now between compression, cam, etc.

If you rebuild a 1969 GTO engine, you have to lower the compression down to about 9.5 to run on today's gas, unless you run av gas or use an aluminum head (like e-heads or KRE).

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Nick, welcome to the Forum.

Where are you located ? You might get a good lead from a member in your area. We all know where there is at least one good deal we can't swing or don't need ourselves.

Not likely you will find a numbers matching 68-70 Ram Air trophy winner in that range. But everyone gets lucky at least once sometime or another.

Usually for 25 you might get any 3 of the following 4 (excluding Judge and RamIV)

Prestigious Pedigree (HO/RamAir,RamAirIII)
Matching Numbers
Recently freshened drivetrain
Really Good Deal

[InjunNick]

in Arizona, thanks for the welcome.....

[InjunNick]

Originally Posted by getmygoat

If you rebuild a 1969 GTO engine, you have to lower the compression down to about 9.5 to run on today's gas, unless you run av gas or use an aluminum head (like e-heads or KRE).

The good thing about living in this elevation over 2500ft, we can get away with up to (sometimes) 10.25 compression on pump gas, 9.75 is a given, anything over 10 is a chance..... thanks for the reply and your viewpoint on the engines, I hadn't thought of that.....Thanks

[InjunNick]

To get more opinions on the cars I am looking at (on the internet) is it safe to post ads of the cars in this thread that I am thinking of buying or will the snakes be out after them if it is a good deal and I will be left alone standing at the alter???????????

Funny thing is that most of the cars I am looking at are on the internet and available to all to see, I guess you never know......

[InjunNick]

I know.... I ask a lot of questions, sorry, I have just been burned once too many before and I am trying not to have it happen again.

[getmygoat]

Originally Posted by InjunNick

To get more opinions on the cars I am looking at (on the internet) is it safe to post ads of the cars in this thread that I am thinking of buying or will the snakes be out after them if it is a good deal and I will be left alone standing at the alter???????????

Funny thing is that most of the cars I am looking at are on the internet and available to all to see, I guess you never know......

There are two risks:

1) You spend too much $$$ for a POS
2) You educate someone here about a car and they buy it before you can.

I believe risk #1 is much higher than risk #2.

I'd suggest taking advantage of the collective knowledge here.... It can save you thousands......

[InjunNick]

Originally Posted by getmygoat

There are two risks:

1) You spend too much $$$ for a POS
2) You educate someone here about a car and they buy it before you can.

I believe risk #1 is much higher than risk #2.

I'd suggest taking advantage of the collective knowledge here.... It can save you thousands......

I sent you a PM..... tell me what you think!

[1971GTO]

I tend to think that the '71s and 2s are highly underrated cars. In my mind, they are quite special, because they can produce big torque and power on unleaded gas. In proper tune and mechanical condition, I feel these cars can run well with the earlier models.

And as others have said, the fed's simply mandated that Pointiac publish the HP and torque in gross/net starting in '71. So the seat of the pants and neck snap difference is negligible to me; but still apples and oranges. The 455HO is virtually the same motor as Ram-Air IV of 1970, the heads are just cc'd at 110 for the low 8.4:1 compression! And pro's pit it as the second fastest GTO motor produced!

I've not had the joy of riding in a pre-'71 car but imagine the ride would be about the same, honestly. Not too much difference in the motors really.

The build numbers go down considerably after 1970 for various sad reasons, so finding one you want to settle with may be more perplexing. Get some GTO books(there are many) and read of the history behind all this.

Whatever vintage you find, tune it drive it and love it. It's not a corperate machine like nowadays. They were all special. But i'm bias toward the low compression cars, because I don't have to shell out at the pump for high test and other additives.

Ask all of the questions you need to and,
Best of luck.

PHS yes before you buy! It's well worth the 35 bucks.

[getmygoat]

Originally Posted by PB

Well..I am biased toward them, but these years are better "driving" cars as the suspensions are MUCH better than pre 70 years. .

Was this just spring rates and sway bar sizes? I've got a 70 GTO now, but I do remember by 72 riding much nicer, but that was 20 years ago. (It had 55k miles on it at the time, and of course my 70 now has many more).

[Held for Ransom]

PHS is now $50.