[John V.]

Trying to diagnose a noise from my GP.

Had a rim wobble that caused lots of vibration. Car always had a harsh ride, when it was new, I blamed the O.E. BFG tires. Seemed a little better when I replaced the tires a few years ago. But as those tires wore out, still got lots of vibration.

Just before replacing the tires this time, I wore the front tires to where steel belts were exposed on the inner edge. I had just started hearing a new whine, checked the tires and saw the steel. So I figured that was the source of the new noise.

Got new tires mounted. I told the shop that a shop that balanced the tires last time (probably 3 years ago) showed me a small "ding" backside of one wheel. Wasn't obvious what caused it, just made balancing difficult. No flats ever in this car. Figured what they showed me on that rim was related to all the vibration I get (dash and roof rattles that come and go but drive me nuts) and the harsh ride that I felt the car has always had. But I did nothing about it.

So this time, the shop showed me the offending wheel, how it wobbled while being spun.

I decided to find a reconditioned wheel and fix this thing properly.

Meanwhile, drove it home with the new tires and I hear road noise like I get in my Jeep Wrangler with very deep tread.

I first thought it was due to the new tires. But checked on line, these tires, Hankook Ventus S1 Noble 2, seem to get high marks for quietness, didn't find anybody with a noise complaint. The more I thought about it, the more I figured something just isn't right.

I even wondered if the new noise that began just before I got the new tires wasn't entirely due to the exposed steel belts. Maybe whatever is making the noise now started making it just before I got the new tires.

I just got the reconditioned wheel mounted. Tech checked the wheel on their machine, told me it was near perfect, easy to balance. They are just a tire shop but they did rock the front wheels for any play or looseness, didn't sense any. I had my fingers crossed that the new wheel would solve the noise.

But on the drive home, I'm still getting the road noise "whine". Becomes audible to me (windows closed) at about 20-25 mph.

When I turn the wheel to the right, the tone changes, becomes somewhat lower pitch.

When I turn to the left, I don't sense a change in tone.

Best I can tell, coming from the front.

Anybody know what the issue might be?

Based on the previous wear, I need an alignment (wearing on the inner edges). But figure I want to fix any issue before I get it aligned.

I have a suspicion I know what the problem is, but hoping somebody knows for sure what the likely culprit is.

[pontiac6269]

Sounds like a front wheel bearing. Check the bearing on the side the bad wheel was on. My wife hit a curb in the winter with our 2006 GP on the passenger front tire and it was enough that the first time I drove the car after I could hear a whine that went up and down with the speed of the car. Jack the car up one side at a time and put trans in drive to listen what side it is coming from. Just have to raise enough to get one front tire off the ground at a time. I sat in the car with the windows down. Also blocked rear tires.

[Sirrotica]

If the whine changes with load by swaying the car side to side, most likely a wheel bearing. Thing is there aren't any sure fire ways I know of to pinpoint it without removing the hub assembly and sometimes you can feel a little roughness if you rotate the bearing by hand after it is removed, not always though.

If the car has high miles on it may be prudent to change both of them because many times the one follows the other soon after the first side failure. I've tried to cheap out and have ended up replacing the second one within a month of the first one.

[John V.]

Thanks guys.

What I am suspecting also. Not necessarily what I wanted to hear.

I do intend to change both.

Only has 110,000 miles, not outrageously high but I'm suspicious that the out of round wheel probably put more stress on whatever hub it was mounted on.

Had a couple guys try to check for play by rocking the wheel. They both thought they felt tight.

But the noise is telling me otherwise.

[Sirrotica]

If you can find Timken replacement hubs I would go with them rather than the inferior cheaper generics (read Chinese). They are worth the extra money in reliability factor and when I replace hub bearings I try to get Timken parts.

Timken has a video of how to inspect a hub bearing, requires a dial indicator that should not exceed .004 on a good bearing assy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpdghLj6AhE

[John V.]

Just after I posted I ordered the Timken hubs from Rock Auto with the coupon code found at PY, about $180 delivered for the pair.

Lots of hubs about half that price, but had already decided it was worth springing for what I hope is a better quality part. Good to know you have had good luck with the Timken brand.

I'm gonna do both, but I thought this was an interesting quick video for diagnosing bearing roughness. I will try to remember to do this test when I jack it up, see if I can isolate which one is the main culprit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzB-V8CrSn8

[hobbygto65]

There easy to change, about 45 min per side. Replaced the wheel bearings on my wife's 01 GTP at 50,000.

[John V.]

Anybody know for sure what size socket needed for the axle nut?

It is an '04 Grand Prix GTP, Comp G if that makes any difference.

I've seen 2 or 3 different sizes mentioned in threads on-line. Would like to buy the right socket the first time out.

Also, the torque for the axle nut when it goes back on?

Thanks in advance.

[hobbygto65]

should be 33mm.

[John V.]

Thanks, did you find the 33 mm in the '04 GP Service Manual by chance or have you used a 33 mm socket on an '04 Grand Prix?

I'm way confused. Watched several videos last night, 1AAuto said 32-35mm and didn't say if they meant any in that range would work or if they meant that some cars use 32, some 33, etc.

One guy's video said "36 mm" while showing his socket clearly marked 34 mm, he then corrected it to 34 mm.

One guy's video which he said was an '04 Grand Prix said he used a 33 mm socket.

Read some forums also and they are also all over the map.

Found a reference catalog from "National" for spindle nuts that shows '98-'01 at 118 ft. lbs. but also shows '01-'03 and '04-'05 at 159 ft. lbs.

Other references all seem to show 118, but one video I watched showed a graphic to torque it to 159.

Same with the bolts holding the hub, 65 says one guy, another says 95.

Really don't want to screw this up.

[judgethis]

Im guessing you don't have a socket that big. You could measure across the nut and see how big the socket will be and get one, they're cheap at the parts store.. Ive done so many wheel bearings ive lost count. You are over thinking this job, its a simple job. I use an impact to break everything loose and impact them back on. if I don't impact the 3 retaining bolts I tighten them by hand real tight. Havent had one fall out yet, The large axle nut I think is around 120 ft lbs. Now go out there and get it done.

A noisy wheel bearing will not always feel loose. we usually would go by if you are turning right, and hear the whine, the left is bad. If turning left, and hear the whine, the right is bad.

[John V.]

Originally Posted by judgethis

Im guessing you don't have a socket that big. You could measure across the nut and see how big the socket will be and get one, they're cheap at the parts store.. Ive done so many wheel bearings ive lost count. You are over thinking this job, its a simple job. I use an impact to break everything loose and impact them back on. if I don't impact the 3 retaining bolts I tighten them by hand real tight. Havent had one fall out yet, The large axle nut I think is around 120 ft lbs. Now go out there and get it done.

A noisy wheel bearing will not always feel loose. we usually would go by if you are turning right, and hear the whine, the left is bad. If turning left, and hear the whine, the right is bad.

Correct, need to buy the socket. Didn't want to buy a set. HF has a (7) piece set of impact sockets, doesn't include 33 mm and sells for $40 before discount. Preference was to buy just the one I need. HF sells individual impact sockets, but largest is 32 mm. I'm gonna call a few friends, see if I can borrow one. If not, might just buy the set even though I really don't expect to need the sockets again. BTW, stopped at one Parts Store, didn't like the look of their impact sockets and they didn't have one big enough anyway. If you know of a Parts Store that has them individually for cheap, it would help if you could identify the store.

Yes, I know how to measure, but would need to pull the wheel to do that and then reinstall the wheel to get to the store. Was hoping somebody here could help with info and save me some time, only reason I asked.

I'll get it done, no doubt on that. Parts supposed to arrive tomorrow. Have a few weekend plans to work around which will limit the time available and wanted to have my ducks in a row so I wouldn't waste time once I start. I don't do car repairs half-arsed if that is what you mean by over-thinking it. When I'm done, it will be done right. Correctly torqueing a bolt isn't entirely about avoiding them coming loose. I would take it to a shop, but I have no confidence that they would do the job as nicely as I will since it isn't their car.

When guys here ask for info, I try to give an accurate and detailed response. That's what I find useful.

I've done front bearings on a couple rear drivers and really don't remember much about the work. I've never done wheel bearings on a front driver. I understand you can do them in your sleep. The job doesn't look all that challenging, but the better prepared I am, the better it will likely go. I don't want to wind up like the guy doing an '04 GP that posted at a GP forum about the experience his son had, tore up the threads when reinstalling the axle nut. Simple job turned into having to replace the axle shaft.

I appreciate the encouragement, but honestly, all I really need is torque info.

[Sirrotica]

From the manual:

The 3 retaining bolts, 96

Axle nut, 118

There are actually 3 sizes of nuts 33, 35 and 36 in 04 so your going to have to measure yours. I assume that the vendors did not use standard sizes so there are 3 different sizes.

Personally I use my SAE fractional sockets that I already own so I don't have to worry about buying extra metric sockets. When your working on nuts that large even though the fractional sockets may be a hair loose, they work fine. Since 1980 when Detroit went to front drive cars I've probably removed axle nuts from at least a couple hundred different cars, never used anything other than fractional sockets.

One other thing the replacement nut that sometimes comes with the new part, (GM says your not to re-use the original nuts) so reputable aftermarket companies usually supply a new nut. The new nut many times is not the same size OD as the originals so if you go by the book you could need another socket beside the one that fits the original nut. I own many fractional sockets that will work fine for all the sizes.

GM uses Loctite on the 3 retaining bolts so breaking them loose with other than an impact wrench can be challenging, also make sure you have a quality 6 point socket so they don't round off.

When early FWD cars started having trouble with CV joints the manufacturers claimed using an impact wrench to remove and replace the axle nuts caused the CV joints to wear out prematurely. It seems that the manufacturers have gotten the quality better with the later model cars and I have not heard that warning for a long while not to use an impact on axle nuts to remove and replace them.

[John V.]

Brad, thanks! With all the different sizes being mentioned, I had begun to wonder if the aftermarket axle nuts varied in size. Never thought the O.E. nuts would have varied!

So maybe I should buy the set after all.

I wonder if the variable nut diameter has anything to do with the 2 different torque values I saw in reference catalogs. I don't suppose PMD thought to suggest a higher torque value for the 36 mm nut for example? Seems to me the axle nut diameter will affect the torque reading, not sure by how much though.

I agree with you on the use of the SAE sockets, but don't have large ones in SAE either, had already checked before looking into the metric, largest I got is 1-1/4".

Never owned an impact wrench. Unrelated to this repair, I had placed it on my Christmas wish list. Hopefully I'll manage without it this time around.

Thanks for the torque specs and additional insight.

[Ben M.]

Originally Posted by John V.

I agree with you on the use of the SAE sockets, but don't have large ones in SAE either, had already checked before looking into the metric, largest I got is 1-1/4".

You won't find much bigger than that either in 1/2" drive, I was looking for larger sockets for suspension work (steering nut removal and 2500 series truck work) and could not find anything in 1/2" drive bigger. I ended up getting a set of 3/4" drive sockets and ratchet\breaker bar and it's been downright helpful for these situations. Brad is right, the SAE stuff may not be a perfect fit, but it's "good enough" in these situations to get metric bolts loose and tightened. I used them on my 6.2 diesel injectors as those required a 34mm (I think) and finding that socket was not easy.

[John V.]

Ugh! Ben don't jinx me! I'm hoping to get by with my 1/2" drive breaker bar.

I have a possible lead on sockets from a neighbor. When I texted that I needed a 34 mm socket, he asked if it was for an axle nut. So I figure he's probably been down this road, might be in luck. He'll check when he gets home.

[John V.]

I appreciate all the replies I've gotten here.

I apologize if I sounded snippy with anybody, especially in my reply to judgethis. Not the way I care to sound, especially when I'm asking for help.

For the benefit of anybody else looking to do this job, turns out Advance Auto will loan the set of impact sockets (includes a 34 mm and a 36 mm) for a deposit. You get the deposit back when you return the kit. Free is good!

My neighbor clued me in to this, he borrowed a set when he did the same job awhile back. I picked up the set today, now just got to get my hands dirty.

[Keith Seymore]

So - these bearings don't need to be pressed on/off with a hydraulic press?

I'd like to do the fronts on my Vibe but somehow got the impression a press was required (and so I haven't done them yet).

K

[Sirrotica]

K, I also have an 08 Vibe although so far (180,000 miles) the bearings seem to be holding up fine. There is a forum for Vibe owners and according to them you do in fact have to press their bearings on and off. At least I have a press if I ever have to do the job.............

Link to wheel bearing discussions at GenVibe.com:

http://forums.genvibe.com/phpBB3/sea...wheel+bearings

[John V.]

Keith, the GP I guess is different design, the bearing comes as a hub assembly. I bet the part is more expensive, but no need to press the bearings in and out.

The GM style I've got commonly last about 100k miles according to a lot of the posts I've read in many forums. Mine are at 110k miles, so seems typical. But Brad's experience and comments at the thread he linked suggests there is a lot of variability. I don't think mine were abused and 90% interstate driving (and not the battle scarred interstates seen around Chicago for example). I suspect the out of round wheel has had a lot to do with the bearing failure on mine.

Had a chance encounter with a guy in Jax last weekend, he was just finishing up replacing a front wheel bearing, I think it was an older Nissan, told him I was expecting to be doing the same job shortly. He pointed to a old auto repair/machine shop just up the street, said they charge him $4 to press the old bearing out and the new bearing in. I'm sure pricing depends on the shop. Prices probably higher up north.