[TRADERMIKE 2012]

All are welcome, state what you want and have fun doing it, I was in the middle of an Engine build and I was cut off and I can't say why, since the Moderator has his finger on the off Button, I would like an explanation of why he pressed it, this last time? These unwritten rules make it hard for me to know when and what to say and to whom, it seems that every one of you is a Moderator, except for me.

I will try again to be polite and I expect you to do the same, after all we are all human. I would ask that the Moderator "not" take sides on an issue, please be like a judge and be impartial, that is your job. What about freedom of speech and all that? You have closed most of the Threads that I am in and for what reason? I feel like I am being bullied, this has to stop.

I asked a hypothetical question and I made it very clear why, do you not like my question? It leads to whether or not I should build this motor for sale or to keep it. This question was being answered by many of the members in their own ways, and you push the button and close the thread, wrong, unfair and I want you reopen the other thread, please.



In order to understand this post, you have to visit the former post, that proceeds this one, the answer to this Post is that "Mike should send the Block out to be operated on by professionals", agreed, by Mike. SEE: "1967 Pontiac 428 ci Block" Build or not to Build", Myself?"

Follow along while Mike completes his Engine build and add any positive, constructive help toward that goal, please. All the Automotive Information is helping me understand the inner working of the combustion Engine. I am reading the Book That I was told to buy and I will be looking at the Haynes Pontiac Firebird text next and the 1967 Pontiac service manual as well. The point is that I am listening and you don't want to believe me. I move in my time and so far, it has worked for me.

At this time, I have looked up a machine shop and will call them after Butler calls me back about the parts. I am working with one of you on the side to keep the drama to a minimum. All your wisdom is appreciated and always welcome.

Please don't be Thread stoppers and gang up on me until the moderator cuts me off, this ploy is working all too well, but it makes the PY forum look bad. We are all men here.

I am pricing the rebuild parts as we speak, Pistons have been determined to have collapsed, as the old ones normally do, from what I have learned. The Rods would have to be resized and the pins pressed out and this labor-intensive work is costly, plus there fifty years fatigued and that negates reusing them. I am buying new forged Rods. The complete gasket kit and Bearings are also being replaced. I need the freeze plugs in Brass. I am looking into possibly purchasing the Cast Crank and forged stroker Rods, I need to see the price difference is. I could turn my Crank, but then again, the Crank has been fatigued after the accident that I had, plus the fact that this Engine went over the side of a mountain, while rum running. I found one member that is honest enough to admit that if you build the top of a motor the lower end fails and vice versa. Now, I am convinced that a total rebuild is in order, all at once. You live and you learn, maybe it takes me a little longer to agree, but that is my nature, I do my research and eventually do the right thing, won't you do the same thing Mr. Moderator?

Moderator you said:


"Since plenty of quite knowledgeable members have taken their time to present thoughtful guidance and solid advice and you’ve chosen to question or worse yet ignore it altogether, I’m closing this thread, honestly, I see no point in continuing on with this convoluted discussion".

I’m sorry to say it but this thread has turned into a complete waste of bandwidth.

Mikes Reply:

"you’ve chosen to question", MIKE: Boy if I can’t question people on this forum what can I do?

"Worse yet ignore it altogether",

MIKE: I have decided eventually to take this Block to the Machine shop, and further it is my right as an American to do what I think is right, not what you or this forum member ever thinks is right.

I am questionable of your right to even be in the position you are in, as a Moderator.

"I see no point in continuing on with this convoluted discussion". MIKE: Who are you to say what is convoluted discussion or not, you jumped the gun cutting me off like that, and I am calling you out on that one, plus you have been directing your personal and the members views toward me as though you can, your wrong, be a middle man, this is your job, do you want me to call Judge Judy or help me Howard?

[East]

I also have a 428 in my 1969 Firebird. The engine is not original to the car.

I am following your thread to learn things that may be important to know if I have to rebuild the engine again.

It is very hard to keep up with the content because some of your threads drift away from the topic of rebuilding the engine, and some are too long to stay focused.of which step was completed, and what was accomplished.

You also keep stating 1967 428 HO YK code.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by East

I also have a 428 in my 1969 Firebird. The engine is not original to the car.

I am following your thread to learn things that may be important to know if I have to rebuild the engine again.

It is very hard to keep up with the content because some of your threads drift away from the topic of rebuilding the engine, and some are too long to stay focused. Of which step was completed, and what was accomplished.

You also keep stating 1967 428 HO YK code.

Mikes reply:

When you are on my Threads, I make it clear that you are free to say anything you want, I like the stories by the forum members.

You said:

"You also keep stating 1967 428 HO YK code".

Is that a question? or are you implying something, I am not sure what you expect me to say.

[Gach]

Please don’t want you guys getting wrong idea and I’m not defending Mike, but he took me up on my offer, and we had better then hours Conversation. At times its hard to determine where a guy is coming from, when many ideas are put out there. Kind of all over the place. But he knows its from his inexperience. Its very hard to communicate in print but as I expected he’s completely different person in a phone Conversation.

OK…here’s what was the determine, with the measurements he was able to communicate to me, it definitely needs new pistons, plus block definitely need boring. Once I explain The process of recondition those rods, he fully gets it now.

The point is even in the resale of that motor, as I explained to him, that person is going to want documentation. So he has decided to go with some good forge pistons and forge rods and the motor will be bored for whats needed. Crank will be turned or may go with a forge Crank.

Giving the life history of that motor this procedure definitely needs to be done, so he’s been pricing things out through Butler.

[Stuart]

This discussion has been greatly trimmed. We all know Mike's style is to ramble from one thing to the next, but calling him on it just stretches things out and drives the discussion further off topic. Please leave the moderating to the moderators, but if you wish to engage in the discussion that's great.

I'll add a little advice to Mike: For everyone's sake, please take a little time to review your posts and make any necessary edits or corrections before hitting the Send button, to make sure your intended message is clear and easy to understand. For instance, when you quote yourself it ends up creating a wall of text that repeats itself, and the posts just get confusing for others to read. That prompts many of the responses you've seen in the past. Also, when quoting someone else, just use the Quote button. It will put the quoted text inside a separate box that makes it easier to understand who said what. When responding to someone else's post, if there's just one or two lines in their post you're responding to you don't have to include the entire body of their text - you can just include those few lines in the quote, and leave out the rest. You can leave off the Mike's Reply at the beginning of your messages as well...your name is already at the top of the post so we know it's from you, and it just adds more unnecessary text on screen.

[Stuart]

One other thing: in your discussion with Mike Spizzuri he asked about family contacts. If he's not aware, Ken Crocie is a member of the board and he can get hold of him directly. He posts here using his name, just look for KEN CROCIE to find his posts or to send him a private message.

[78w72]

Might be beneficial to start a new thread with this topic as the title so other people that might be able to help can see it as opposed to a thread titled building a 1967 428 ci HO YK Code Pontiac....

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Thank you, Mr. Moderator for cleaning this Thread, so that I may precede.

For the new commers, I will give you a time line about this 428 ci motor, it begins with someone that used this Engine to run shine, the Truck that this Motor was in went off the path into a ditch or mountain, whatever. The Vehicle it was in was running and there is the problem, anything could have happened.

My predecessor, from whom I purchased this 1979 Pontiac TA had installed it into the Engine compartment stock, he only put a timing chain and Gear in it and painted it and called it finished. I did not know what stock meant at the time, I questioned him and he kept saying stock. Well stock means he sourced a motor and stuck it in a hole and that was that.

I drove the 428 ci for 10 years or 7 K miles, during which at first, I was bending Push rods and replacing them several times before realizing the stud nut was cracked over the rocker arm, on the number one cylinder. We were testing up to the limit of 130 mph back then. Over the next few years, we replaced the movable parts like the Cam, push rods, lifters, oil pump, splash shields under the valve covers.

The motor ran well and we had some fun, until I had an accident and the Trans. was broken. After a successful remanufacturing of the TH 400 we began to get the bugs out of the tranny and that was successful.

We began testing and tuning with the New Trans. and started to hear unexplainable noises coming from the Engine, we replaced the Harmonic balancer and the flexplate, hoping that would fix the problem, while the forum said it was Piston slap and eventually, we found it to be number 7 rod pin journal was worn as was the bearing. The number 8 cyl rod bearing was ruined, both sharing the same connecting rod. This up and down reciprocal motion affected the lower number 4 crank, lower cap, worn to the copper. All this started from the Harmonic balancer being cracked and the vibrations going through this motor for 7 k miles. We think that when this engine went over the hill in the Carolinas, the Harmonic balancer cracked.

We found that the Engine had the Pistons installed to the rear instead of toward the front, as Pontiac intended them. So, I thought that I would repair the Heads by remanufacturing them and they needed it. Two exhaust valve seats were installed and one exhaust valve was replaced, it had hairline cracks in it. The valve guides were knurled and the Intake valve seal bosses received new seals. The original Intake valves were cut back from the factory and received the proper seals and the exhaust bosses were never cut back and the Head machinist elected to install (Hat type) seals over them. I found out later that he should have installed new valve guides in the Heads instead of knurling them. Originally, he was to cut back the exhaust bosses as well and then he changed his mind. I will return to see him before this job is complete.

I asked the forum if anyone had heard that if you build the top end of a motor the bottom will fail and vice- versa and no one admitted it or just did not answer me. I finally found someone that knew that. So, this leads me to believe that I have recently been the recipient of this saying and I will pass it on to you. I replaced all replaceable parts with in my motor and it always ran, the moment I installed the remanufactured Heads on a weak original lower end, the lower end failed. There were as many miles on the top as the bottom and they grew old together and once I installed new Heads on the old bottom the lower end could not take the load. The consensus is, you can build in between the motor and get a few more miles or some performance gains, but if you're going to build the motor, build the top and bottom all at once. Mike.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Might be beneficial to start a new thread with this topic as the title so other people that might be able to help can see it as opposed to a thread titled building a 1967 428 ci HO YK Code Pontiac....

Mikes Reply:

As long as you know that an engine is being built here, they will too. JMO

[78w72]

Rebuilding the heads did NOT put more "load" on the bottom end to cause it to fail while running it at idle or low rpms in the driveway. Load requires some type of resistance on the engine like a dyno or driving the car under hard acceleration. The bottom end of the engine does not know if the heads were rebuilt or not.

When that question was asked, myself & many others explained that just installing rebuilt heads will not automatically cause the bottom end to fail but apparently you missed that... the bearings were bad long before the heads were rebuilt. Countless people rebuild heads without rebuilding the engine, as long as the bottom end is in decent condition new heads wont cause any problems.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes Reply:

As long as you know that an engine is being built here, they will too. JMO

Thats not the point of the suggestion... anyone that could help with the HO topic you are asking about wouldnt know about it since this thread is about building an engine. However, simply starting a new thread with the title of "looking for relatives of HO racing" or something like that would get it out there for people to see... now its just buried in a thread about building your engine.

Just a logical suggestion.

Originally Posted by Stuart

I'll add a little advice to Mike: You can leave off the Mike's Reply at the beginning of your messages as well...your name is already at the top of the post so we know it's from you, and it just adds more unnecessary text on screen.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Rebuilding the heads did NOT put more "load" on the bottom end to cause it to fail while running it at idle or low rpms in the driveway. Load requires some type of resistance on the engine like a dyno or driving the car under hard acceleration. The bottom end of the engine does not know if the heads were rebuilt or not.

When that question was asked, myself & many others explained that just installing rebuilt heads will not automatically cause the bottom end to fail but apparently you missed that... the bearings were bad long before the heads were rebuilt. Countless people rebuild heads without rebuilding the engine, as long as the bottom end is in decent condition new heads won't cause any problems.

Mikes Reply:

Try reading the last post, it will explain the latest theory That I have, pertaining to the overall picture that I have in regards to this motor, please.

[Formulajones]

Mike, Putting fresh heads on a short block does not cause premature failure. Not even sure where that folklore even comes from but if you search the internet long enough you'll find someone that agrees with your theories, but that doesn't make them correct.

Your short block was done long before you did the heads, and it was suggested many times you need to address it while you had it down the first time, with pistons backwards and having run some sort of flush through the engine that many said was a bad idea, only to find out that you now have bearings that are shot, and piston to cylinder wall clearance excessive, which a few of us suspected early on. Your cylinder heads didn't do any of this damage. That short block was doomed from the beginning.

Regurgitating the same false theories in this thread is pretty pointless now. All you really need to do is drop that thing off at a reputable shop, and get the necessary and proper machine work done, buy good parts and find someone with the ability to assemble it properly, take some photos and document things and make a nice thread out of this with a happy ending. That's what will give you the respect you so desperately seek.

Best of luck on the build. Fingers crossed you get through this process without incident, take the good advice given by many, and end up with a healthy Pontiac that lasts many years and miles moving forward.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes Reply:

Try reading the last post, it will explain the latest theory That I have, pertaining to the overall picture that I have in regards to this motor, please.

Try reading & understanding my last post & the one just now from FJ, please. Those are facts, not theories.

I did read your post and that theory is flat out wrong. Same for the "theory" that the rebuilt heads metal was stronger or harder than the old weak metal of the block so that caused the ghost noise... or was it the metal compression ring of the felpro head gaskets that caused the noise?

Either way, the engine will be better off without all the overthinking, deducing & theories not based in reality.

[Gach]

Old theory….Under the premise that you’ve rebuilt the top end, added more compression and more cam . Which could add to detonation, the kind you don’t hear, yes it can pound the out bearings. So yeah he did add more cam and rebuilt top end. On a bottom end thats been pounded on for years and already on its way out, long before top on was rebuilt.

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Gach

Old theory….Under the premise that you’ve rebuilt the top end, added more compression and more cam . Which could add to detonation, the kind you don’t hear, yes it can pound the out bearings. So yeah he did add more cam and rebuilt top end. On a bottom end thats been pounded on for years and already on its way out, long before top on was rebuilt.

Hmm. More cam isn't going to make it more
detonation prone, it's less cam that does that.
Factory scientists carefully selected a cam for
the 1967 428 ci HO YK Code Pontiac that didn't
detonate. Even inferring that a former gymnast
and his roommate failed to adequately tune the
motor is tantamount to heresy. And 067 heads?
They don't detonate. Ever.

[Gach]

You don’t comprehend too well do you I said more cam and more compression. Also thought I made it clear its a motor thats been beat to death. Just trying to say why he came up with that conclusion.

[Dragncar]

I put some 48 heads, 2801 type cam headers and 800 Q jet in a worn out 2 barrel 350 engine and it ran great. Old 350 had 114,000 miles on it.
Blowing out the bottom end of a engine from more compression and cam is a old wives tale.
Just wondering what it takes to get a "following" ?

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Gach

You don’t comprehend too well do you I said more cam and more compression.

Did mike's head mechanic mill the 067 heads?
If it's detonating with more cam, it's user error.

[Gach]

Not saying it was detonating, didn’t mean that, in our phone conversation I was just explaining to him, thats how they or why they came up with that old theory if you build top end and not the bottom end it usually wipes out the bottom end. Especially if the bottom has been beat up to point it really needed rebuilding.

Because usually the add more cam and more compression. So we kind of prove the bottom end was beat up pretty bad already. So I guess You guys are just not getting it.