[vertigto]

Originally Posted by dataway

I've had great luck with appliances, I almost always buy something that at least has a US corporate headquarters although seldom made in the US. Often Mexico or the like.

The key is ... I buy the most simple model that fits my needs. As few bells and whistles as possible. Besides having half as many systems to break, repair is always easier on the simple models. Also, if they are unrepairable in the long run ... way less painful because they didn't cost a lot to begin with. The simple models usually have tried and true technology that is 40 years old, commonly available and less expensive parts and easier to take apart or figure out.

This simple models are the ones that are marketed to the rest of the world, India, Africa, Mexico etc. they have to be simple, cheap and reliable or they will lose market share instantly. A bit less efficient .. yes, might not do the job quite as well ... yes, look "luxury" and futuristic ... no.

^^^^^^^ This...and if/when they break, I get online, find the service manual or Youtube video and fix them myself.

[tooski]

Originally Posted by dataway

The key is ... I buy the most simple model that fits my needs.

I haven't bought a phone in quite a while. First smartphone was a Samsung S2 hand me down from a friend who upgrades every other year. Battery went bad and I foolishly pitched it instead of buying a new battery. Then I inherited my wife's S5 when she changed networks. She got a chinese P20 (I almost sh!!t and tried to get her to change it to anything else) The first thing I noticed with the S2 and what I had before was the amount of apps and peripheral programs that were preloaded and cannot be be deleted (and are always updating using data). This got worse when I went to the S5. Then my wife's P20 is just ridiculous.
I went to a smartphone cuz texting with a flip phone was severely inefficient.

Btw, for about the first year she had the p20, about 2 - 3 times a month, she would get telemarketers speaking chinese!

[Lemans64]

Originally Posted by bird72

Yes, they have been that way here, no box, 2 years later. I was embarrassed to try, and they didn't bat an eye.

My buddy took his 8 year old BBQ back to Costco and got full refund, like you I would have been a bit embarassed to try.

[gokitty]

Warranties and guarantees are only as good as the ethics,integrity and commitment to honoring the promises made to the purchaser who relied on them as an inducement to purchase the sellers' goods and/or services. All to often, the objective is not to offer a "real" warranty or guarantee. The driving objective is to have the purchaser put money in the pocket of the seller instead of the seller's competitor who offers like goods or services. Guarantees /warranties are far too often nothing more than a sales tool.
Ten years ago we purchased expensive polywood outdoor furniture with a 15 year 100% warranty against every thing but a nuclear holocaust. We chose these items in part because the seller made this warranty a big part of their sales presentation. The back braces on this furniture broke. The seller's response when we inquired about warranty repair or replacement was that the manufacturer had gone out of business and that we were out of luck. The seller did not even offer to discount a new purchase of similar furniture.
We purchased a termite treatment for our house and paid for a ten year warranty which required an annual inspection and payment of an annual fee. Within the 10 years, sure enough, termites damaged our home. After the termite company rep. inspected the damage to our home, he informed us that our warranty was for protection against "subterrean termite damage". and that our warranty did not cover our damage. Why not? Because our damage came from "aerial" termites, not subterranean termites.
The federal web site for flood insurance backscreen portrays a beautiful sky over a glittering smooth body of water. A jetty/pier is shown projecting over the water. Hurricane Isaisis(sic) severely damaged our jetty/pier. It was not a covered peril although a pier/jetty is the only manmade object in this piece of their advertising.
I am not by nature a cynic. But, I'm of an opinion that most guarantees/warranties are only worth the value of the paper upon which they are written.
Those companies /merchants who do honor not only the specific mice print of their warranties but also honor the spirit of those warranties/guarantees are very rare. Costco has been favorably mentioned in this thread. Their commitment to better than fair dealing with their customers singles them out as a great merchant with whom to do business. Sears used to be that way (satisfaction guaranteed or your money back) when there was a Sears. Too few businesses follow this model. As for me, I shop...a lot... at Costco. And I try to do business with providers who put their personal/business reputation before making an extra buck. But I've been stung more than once on the road to learning who to trust and who to avoid.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Elarson

I don't buy extended warranties on anything. I'm pretty sure that the money I saved on avoiding them will pay for an occasional item that has to be sent to an early grave.

I agree with you.

I may be the one that brought up extended warranties, but that was only in response to the OP stating that a 1 year warranty was a "joke".

I brought up the extended warranty only to point out that if he truly felt a 1 year warranty was a "joke", he had the option of paying extra to get a longer warranty.

The price he paid for the AC unit was based on a 1 year warranty and if he didn't think that was sufficient, he should have spent the money to either find a unit that came with a longer factory warranty (1 year is the norm for window AC units) or purchase the readily available aftermarket warranty.

[Shiny]

I could not bite my fingers on this one.

I would also be frustrated and upset over a rarely-used AC unit dying in less than a year.

The first 20 yrs of my career, I helped companies make stuff. The last 25, I helped them from losing too much money on warranties.

As a reliability engineer, the job is to support new product development by setting failure targets, partner with mechanical and electrical designers to balance reliability against cost and manufacturing, test and measure reliability performance, and finally, commit to management before the new products are shipped. Net: the job is to predict the losses when a new product is shipped.

As gokitty stated, what the end user gets is totally a function of the philosophy and priorities of the business.

Delivering reliable products is EXPENSIVE. Engineers are expensive. Testing is expensive. Reliable components are expensive. Do-overs on designs and tooling during development are expensive.

I know nothing about LG but the world of consumer goods is a total crapshoot. We as consumers have driven everything to the cheapest point possible, not to the most reliable point possible. We take a chance, get lucky or burned, then form opinions from our own experience without seeing the big picture. The big picture has turned into stars on Amazon or the Home Depot web site.

Consumer product designs change so fast, the brand reputation can survive because the products are obsolete very fast. A company like LG can ship a bad one and be OK because they ship 10 other good ones.

If a company wants to distinguish themselves from their competition by reliability, they will have to invest in R&D and the products will cost more and perhaps be behind the technology curve because their development cycle is longer.

I worked for one company that intentionally used retail markets to test the early-life reliability of new products they developed for OEM customers. This was cheaper than testing and got them to the OEM market faster. If the product had issues, they'd find out quick. They could eat the losses through retailers who would deal with individual customer complaints - they did honor their warranty and supported the retailers. Point is, if they had shipped a bad product to an OEM customer, they would instantly have no market.

So really, all I have to offer is buy from a retailer that has a liberal exchange policy and values you as a customer. When the retailer tells you to contact the manufacturer, you get this thread.

[NeighborsComplaint]

True story. I was VP Business Development for the logistics group at Sanyo (remember them?). I set up the the US distribution of the very first LG products (room A/C units) which were branded as Kenmore and sold through Sears stores. We set up a tech/testing area (multiple test benches with electric) in our warehouses in NJ, IL, AR and CA for the A/C units to be tested prior to shipping.

LG brought a team of techs from their Seoul, So Korea HQ to the US and random sampled units from each arriving container. They function tested them monitoring outlet temps, coolant pressures and electrical load. Each container load was placed on QA Hold until the techs tested and released them to ship to prevent untested batches from being shipped to Sears. Following completion of predetermined number of samplings, they were satisfied the products were unaffected by the ocean and rail intermodal transport and this additional QA process was eliminated.

I was very impressed with the quality of their processes and their commitment to a successful business venture with Sears. That was many years ago and the manufacturing processes have evolved and become much more sophisticated in Southeast Asia. I get a kick out people whose nationalistic views blind them to the fact that US manufacturing is long gone and we are no longer the leaders of industry.

[george kujanski]

Bought a Maytag washer from Costco recently (they carry other brands too).. they give you an xtra year of warranty and a third year if you use their credit card. No additional shipping, and install. Haul away the old one too.

george

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by george kujanski

Bought a Maytag washer from Costco recently (they carry other brands too).. they give you an xtra year of warranty and a third year if you use their credit card. No additional shipping, and install. Haul away the old one too.

george

Costco has a good rep. I don't know how they manage contracts with manufacturers but they could not do this if the return rates were high. I remember some of our products had contractual limits on allowable return rates and good retailers will hold the manufacturers accountable. I worked on issues where major accounts put us in the penalty box until we convinced them we understood and had resolved the underlying cause for high return rates. These are good retailers!

Another interesting "learning" is about giant box stores. Corporate offices can buy stuff sold in all stores all over the country and will pass the warranty issues on to the manufacturers. In the case of something like an LG fridge, LG may do well fixing stuff in a large metro area but not so well in rural regions. We live in a small town, not too close to any big city. The salespeople at Home Depot, Lowes, local appliance stores, and appliance repair companies are very open and honest about repairs if you ask them. We were told not to buy LG nor Samsung here. Not because they are bad products. It's because IF they fail, there is no way to get them fixed. This would be different in a big city.

I now ask before I buy - "if this fails, where do I get it fixed"? If it's pricey like a fridge, I'll call the repair companies and/or authorized warranty centers before I buy. It only takes a few minutes and has saved me a lot of grief.

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

..... I get a kick out people whose nationalistic views blind them to the fact that US manufacturing is long gone and we are no longer the leaders of industry.

Yup!

For a long time, many "US" brands continued to design and develop products in the US but contract the manufacturing. This still allowed them to maintain legacy controls on quality and reliability.

Today, even the R&D and engineering design centers have been relocated to lower-cost countries. I personally think this shift has aggravated the decline in product quality and reliability. "Elders" or "Gray-Beards" that knew how to manage quality and reliability have been replaced by young engineers without that experience. They are really good at design and getting products out the door quickly but just don't have the built-in checks and balances that were developed from the old-school vertically integrated US manufacturers.

[beertracker]

I wouldn't be surprised if Rooster Woman was located offshore.

[Goatracer1]

To the person who said ac units are used year round elsewhere: I don’t live elsewhere. I expect an ac unit to last more than 5 months of intermittent use. There is no reason that with today’s electronics an appliance couldn’t store actual time run. It may already for all I know. The warranty could be like an automobile’s . Instead of miles vs time it could be use vs calendar years. They could give you 6 months of use or 3 calendar years. Which ever comes first. I know it won’t happen. It would cost them too much.

[Shiny]

Everything you say is true.

And you are right to be upset.

To set reliability requirements for a product, you need a "use model". This is a "spec" for the product designers that spells out statistical distributions of factors that cause failures. A good model would include shipping/handling stress, start/stop cycles, use hours for each subsystem, etc. A product is usually designed and tested to the equivalent of a user at the upper end of the distribution for the warranty period.

You were in the "tail" of the distribution... low probability of wearing out. Your low usage helped reduce the estimated warranty cost across all shipped units at the end of 1-yr.

So no, LG is unlikely to guarantee the reliability as a function of hours on. As you say, it would cost them too much.

Note: all "connected" products are a boon for reli engineers as actual use statistics can be captured across at least a sample of users. This means no more guessing about the variation in use - engineers have data ! (only if the manufacturer cares enough about reliability to invest in the firmware and data collection infrastructure).

That said, your AC likely did not fail by wearing out. It was more likely:

1) a defective part or subassembly that snuck past the factory tests. This is "infant mortality". This is hard to prevent when you source the cheapest parts from the cheapest factories and don't make them prove anything.

Electronics are the most common cause of failure in most systems. Solder joints and connections are high on the list of causes. Something as simple as a manufacturing operator failing to seat a connector is an example of an "early life" failure risk.

or

2) a failure mode that was not anticipated by the design team. For example, your intermittent use might have aggravated corrosion and the product designers didn't think about it or their standard tests don't cover it.

or

3) shipping damage.. your AC unit may have been dropped off a truck and something inside moved or broke. This is way more common than you might think as protecting products with good packaging is very expensive. That corrugate and styrofoam may look good but not be worth much if the unit falls off the pallet.

When you cram a cargo container full of product, you don't want to pay for the "volume" needed for good shock protection because it reduces the number of products per container.

Sorry this happened to you but you are far from alone.

[Heybuck]

Originally Posted by Goatracer1

I call LG looking for help and get some woman I assume must be working from home. How can I tell you ask? Because she hardly speaks English, has a dog barking, chickens clucking and a rooster crowing in the back ground. She reads from her script and tells me I'm s--- out of luck.

My take on this is LG probably outsource their "customer care" personal to a country like the Philippines, India, Thailand or someplace similar. It happens (here in Australia) all the time. Major telcos, banks, electricity providers - they all do it BECAUSE ITS CHEAP. I've had to tear my hair out several times over similar matters where you just want to talk to someone who is hands-on and is willing to help.

A couple of times I got fast and good responses not by calling the company but by writing a nice letter detailing my problem, send it to the head office addressed to the Person in Charge and I've always had a good response.

Explain that you have had NO sensible understanding from the persons answering your calls and you are expecting a higher level of care from what a reputable company is selling itself as.

Try that and let us know how you go.

Good luck.

Ian

[Goatracer1]

One of the repair companies that LG referred me to was definitely off shore. When she said that a service technician could be sent I thought about taking the unit to them and saving the service call cost. When I asked where she was she told me the Phillipines.

[Will]

Originally Posted by Shiny

,,,
If a company wants to distinguish themselves from their competition by reliability, they will have to invest in R&D and the products will cost more and perhaps be behind the technology curve because their development cycle is longer.

...

This is a real head-scratcher to me. We're talking about basic household appliances here. Refrigerators are doing the same job they did 70 years ago, and in the same way. Maybe they have an ice and water dispenser built into them nowadays, but basically they're an insulated box that keeps stuff cold. A washing machine washes clothes using water and a rotating drum. A dryer dries clothes. An AC unit cools the air. There is no fundamental difference in the technologies behind these items in 2021 than there was when they first became common items in people's houses. The technologies may be more refined and energy efficient than they used to be, but the principles are all the same. No one needs an internet capable refrigerator and if that's what people are buying and they die in 5 years, I say boo hoo. Give me a basic refrigerator that keeps stuff cold. That's all I require of it.

The last washing machine I bought, about 11 years ago now, was a Speed Queen. Made in America. All metal transmission. At that time, it still had basic knobs and dials which I consider to be a plus though I understand the new ones have succumbed to the technological rat race and now have digital controls. In any case, this thing's been going strong for 11 years now, still works fine. It was considerably more expensive than many other options but I made an investment in reliability, knowing it would cost less in the long run. I wish there were more options like this. You can bet your ass when I need to buy a fridge I'm going to do my research to see which ones last the longest, and I'll pay twice as much for one if I can be reasonably sure it'll last 15+ years. Dunno if anyone makes a fridge like that any more, but that's what I'd be looking for. I don't really care if it's "behind the times" or whatever. it's a freaking' fridge. If my beer is cold when I open the door that's *ALL* that matters and I absolutely will not buy something that connects to the internet unless I have to to get everything else I want (which is just something reliable and the right size) and then I'm hoping that functionality can be turned off or ignored.

Oddly, my take on dryers is very different. I'll only buy used ones because you can get 'em for super cheap and if they don't last all that long, oh well. I just bought one in like-new condition off Craigslist for $130 and it works fine. When it stops, I'll go buy another one for that little or less.

It's sad that the quality option doesn't seem to be available for most of these things any more.

[Simple Man]

Originally Posted by Elarson

I don't buy extended warranties on anything. I'm pretty sure that the money I saved on avoiding them will pay for an occasional item that has to be sent to an early grave.

Eric

Years ago, I bought a GMC squarebody pickup used from a dealer. It came with an extended warranty from GM. Had a constant overheating problem. Took it back, they said it could be the block cracked, head cracked, or head gaskets. Block and heads were covered, head gaskets were not. And I would have to pay, to see what the problem was.

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by Will

This is a real head-scratcher to me. We're talking about basic household appliances here. ..... There is no fundamental difference in the technologies behind these items in 2021 than there was when they first became common items in people's houses. The technologies may be more refined and energy efficient than they used to be, but the principles are all the same. ...

The last washing machine I bought, about 11 years ago now, was a Speed Queen. .....

It's sad that the quality option doesn't seem to be available for most of these things any more.

Will -

I think you get it and do your homework.

I also think you are willing to spend more to get quality and reliability.

You just may not be a typical consumer!

Take a look at how Speed Queen markets themselves. They WANT to distinguish themselves from their competition by selling a more reliable product. If you follow the "Learn Why" link on their web page they do a good job explaining how they develop products to last and how they test to back it up. They describe a use model (mean or median of 8 loads/week) and they offer a 7-yr warranty. They life-test to 25-yr equivalent life to back up the warranty.

They talk about making design decisions to increase durability...

They brag about their test lab...

These things cost them both money and time.

https://speedqueen.com/



I haven't looked up prices but the absence of Speed Queen on the Home Depot web site tells me you'll pay more for Speed Queen than you would for a more "mainstream" brand with the same features. It appears to be a "premium" brand marketed to deliver higher reliability for a price.

As to "technology", I agree on one level that a washer is a washer but when you have 50 years of cost reduction to increase profit, stuff changes... even Speed Queen is showing membrane switches and electronic controls, not 1960s mechanical timers. Something as simple as newer-technology cold-rolled sheet steel can enable significant cost reduction by delivering the same strength in a thinner gauge. The thinner gauge might function great until a little abuse happens or the reduced stiffness allows more vibe stress. A bushing made from a modern plastic can replace a more expensive sintered bronze bushing but may not last as long. These are the kinds of technology changes that affect appliances.

We have a Whirlpool washer that has had two lower bearing failures in 10 years. When I fixed it (twice now), I find they had saved cost by incorporating a direct-drive high-torque motor into the drum and eliminated a separate motor and transmission. Worked great until it didn't. The bearing design was weak, lubrication was poor, and it relied on a cheap seal between the drum and bearing to keep the water out (until it didn't)..... but yes, it made it past their warranty period!

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Goatracer1

...12 month warranty
... LG 22,000btu air conditioner
... a rooster crowing in the back ground

...Walmart where I bought it...

If Walmart , or anywhere else around , still sells an identical or extremely similar LG AC unit ... go buy a new one.
Clean the old one, blow it off, re-package it, return it.

Rooster woman could/should have told you this herself.
But she works for LG , not for you. SoL
You got a Dud/Defect - either they stick it to you - or you give them back their Dud.
It's the 21st century pro-active customer service satisfaction workaround.

Basically (in pro-active terms) the same thing as if rooster woman would have said LG wants to make you a happy customer and understands you only got minimal actual use of the product.
Return it to the nearest retailer for a new replacement.
(good old days)
(happy customer)
(positive lowest hassle solution)

It is the ONLY way you will get 20th century customer service in the 21st century.
Now, they DO know this, and usually change models/designs annually.
Its built into the business model along with the 12 month warranty and rooster woman, from the start. (SoL)

But if you're lucky - you will get lucky - and find another one somewhere.
good luck

I wouldn't be satisfied with 5 months usage for $700
Either have to eat it , or be pro-active.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Option #2 - (the humbled consumer)

Find a guy on craigslist who services window units - or buys/sells them.
He can fix it cheaper than anyone else.

But knowing LG products - it is probably going to be a diminishing return situation.
(not worth what it needs in parts&labor)
But , you might get lucky.