[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Gach

Those High Ports with 6.200 long valves are very heavy valves, so what do you think. The seat and open pressure has to be to run .750 lift cam. Then add 1.7 rocker on top of that. Instead of a 1.5 or 1.6 rocker. Because thats what SD set them heads/springs up for.

That would depend not only on the cam lobe being used but the max RPM that is wanted. I believe Troy wants a max of 7000 RPM.

Stan

[Steve C.]

Gach
I brought up what Harold Brookshire and Tim, who worked with Harold for 21 years, used years ago as only one good example of many.
And when they used those UD lobes in a Pontiac it was with their valvetrain mass at the time, and again years ago. NOT something like a High Port head used today.
Thus my comment.

Onward thru the fog !


.

[Gach]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

Gach
I brought up what Harold Brookshire and Tim, who worked with Harold for 21 years, used years ago as only one good example of many.
And when they used those UD lobes in a Pontiac it was with their valvetrain mass at the time, and again years ago. NOT something like a High Port head used today.
Thus my comment.

Onward thru the fog !


.

You missed my whole point, reread it maybe you’ll get it.

[Cliff R]

"What brace did you run ?"

The brace was from SD Performance nearly as I can remember. The engine described above was doomed from day one. There just isn't enough material in a stock block to push power levels that high and get them to live.

Some get away with it, others do not, but these blocks just don't have a lot of materal in the lifter bore area holding both halves together unless it's a 73-74 Super Duty.......

[Dragncar]

Its well known you can get 650 HP out of a 455- 4.25 stroker on pump gas with a good set of heads and the right parts. And they last and last
People do it with 2 bolt blocks and studs too.
That was what this build started out to be. Only with splayed main caps and block fill which is all done.
Now, since I am making more money I thought I would try and get a little more power out of it.
And I am not trying to do it with putting more stress on the engine, more RPM, crazy CR.
The cam as it is now is even less stressful than the Crower cam Whitmore got me. A lifter bore brace is not even required with the Bullet cam as it stands right now. But I have a full SD lifter brace.
The engine will not see over 6800 RPM.
I am trying to get 40-50 more HP out of a better cam and things like back cut rings that are gas ported and using a V pump.
Better pan with kickout and duel scrapper. Those things are worth power and do nothing to put more stress on the block.
I had a 1050 custom built for this engine too. But I bracket race and most likely the carb that will be on it when I race will be the same old 850 HP I have run for years. You are better off bracket racing with a 4150 carb vs a 4500 carb in my experience . The guy who built the 1050 told me the same thing.
Gogtogo runs a .440 lobe on his street driven 14-1 High Port stroker making 740 HP.

Now would I be better off trying to do this with a set of ported E heads ? I think so.
For the vast majority of Pontiac builds they are the better choice. The only place I have figured out the HP head is better is the far end of the racing spectrum and very few builds at that.
But the High Ports are what I have and are a fine head and these flow really well for a pocket ported head. Like a wide port almost.
And other people have done what I am trying to do and the engine lived just fine.

[Gach]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"What brace did you run ?"

The brace was from SD Performance nearly as I can remember. The engine described above was doomed from day one. There just isn't enough material in a stock block to push power levels that high and get them to live.

Some get away with it, others do not, but these blocks just don't have a lot of materal in the lifter bore area holding both halves together unless it's a 73-74 Super Duty.......

Yup and keep your fingers crossed and hope it doesn’t come apart on the high end.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Its well known you can get 650 HP out of a 455- 4.25 stroker on pump gas with a good set of heads and the right parts. And they last and last
People do it with 2 bolt blocks and studs too.
That was what this build started out to be. Only with splayed main caps and block fill which is all done.
Now, since I am making more money I thought I would try and get a little more power out of it.
And I am not trying to do it with putting more stress on the engine, more RPM, crazy CR.
The cam as it is now is even less stressful than the Crower cam Whitmore got me. A lifter bore brace is not even required with the Bullet cam as it stands right now. But I have a full SD lifter brace.
The engine will not see over 6800 RPM.
I am trying to get 40-50 more HP out of a better cam and things like back cut rings that are gas ported and using a V pump.
Better pan with kickout and duel scrapper. Those things are worth power and do nothing to put more stress on the block.
I had a 1050 custom built for this engine too. But I bracket race and most likely the carb that will be on it when I race will be the same old 850 HP I have run for years. You are better off bracket racing with a 4150 carb vs a 4500 carb in my experience . The guy who built the 1050 told me the same thing.
Gogtogo runs a .440 lobe on his street driven 14-1 High Port stroker making 740 HP.

Now would I be better off trying to do this with a set of ported E heads ? I think so.
For the vast majority of Pontiac builds they are the better choice. The only place I have figured out the HP head is better is the far end of the racing spectrum and very few builds at that.
But the High Ports are what I have and are a fine head and these flow really well for a pocket ported head. Like a wide port almost.
And other people have done what I am trying to do and the engine lived just fine.

Troy,
As said above pressure angle, and It is much more complex than peak lobe lift.

Stan

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Its well known you can get 650 HP out of a 455- 4.25 stroker on pump gas with a good set of heads and the right parts. And they last and last
People do it with 2 bolt blocks and studs too.
That was what this build started out to be. Only with splayed main caps and block fill which is all done.
Now, since I am making more money I thought I would try and get a little more power out of it.
And I am not trying to do it with putting more stress on the engine, more RPM, crazy CR.
The cam as it is now is even less stressful than the Crower cam Whitmore got me. A lifter bore brace is not even required with the Bullet cam as it stands right now. But I have a full SD lifter brace.
The engine will not see over 6800 RPM.
I am trying to get 40-50 more HP out of a better cam and things like back cut rings that are gas ported and using a V pump.
Better pan with kickout and duel scrapper. Those things are worth power and do nothing to put more stress on the block.
I had a 1050 custom built for this engine too. But I bracket race and most likely the carb that will be on it when I race will be the same old 850 HP I have run for years. You are better off bracket racing with a 4150 carb vs a 4500 carb in my experience . The guy who built the 1050 told me the same thing.
Gogtogo runs a .440 lobe on his street driven 14-1 High Port stroker making 740 HP.

Now would I be better off trying to do this with a set of ported E heads ? I think so.
For the vast majority of Pontiac builds they are the better choice. The only place I have figured out the HP head is better is the far end of the racing spectrum and very few builds at that.
But the High Ports are what I have and are a fine head and these flow really well for a pocket ported head. Like a wide port almost.
And other people have done what I am trying to do and the engine lived just fine.

You really think e-heads are equal to hp heads?

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by slowbird

You really think e-heads are equal to hp heads?

Brian,
I sure in '67 when Pontiac changed the valve incline angle that they were told to make it fit with all of the other parts. Otherwise there is no good reason not to have made the head taller and raised the port.

Stan

[Gach]

Originally Posted by slowbird

You really think e-heads are equal to hp heads?

Thats not what he said.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Troy,
As said above pressure angle, and It is much more complex than peak lobe lift.

Stan

I get it, that is why I sent the cam back to Tim to give me less side loading to worry about.
If Scot Brown can spec a cam with a near .460 lobe and have it live fine in Jakes 434 then its not about lift being the big killer of stock blocks.
Its blasting a lifter bore out sideways.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by slowbird

You really think e-heads are equal to hp heads?

Well, for the ported to the max big time race builds, no.
Even though the highest NA powered Pontiac was still Leech with his E heads.
You could say its really a theory that HPs are a better race head. Even though I think they are.
But for 95% of us the E head will more than get the job done. And you don't have to worry about hood clearance, crossover, valve covers hitting things ect.
Or deal with the 1" longer valve that it turns out is a issue in a stock block pushing the limits. I don't think its insurmountable but it must be taken into account.
I really like the High Port head. Its really thick, nice and solid as you know. More room to port and all that.
But I would not mind having a set of SDs 340-350cfm standard port E heads with the new chamber either.
You could make a 700HP NA Pontiac stroker with those too.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Gach

Thats not what he said.

Yes it pretty much is.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Well, for the ported to the max big time race builds, no.
Even though the highest NA powered Pontiac was still Leech with his E heads.
You could say its really a theory that HPs are a better race head. Even though I think they are.
But for 95% of us the E head will more than get the job done. And you don't have to worry about hood clearance, crossover, valve covers hitting things ect.
Or deal with the 1" longer valve that it turns out is a issue in a stock block pushing the limits. I don't think its insurmountable but it must be taken into account.
I really like the High Port head. Its really thick, nice and solid as you know. More room to port and all that.
But I would not mind having a set of SDs 340-350cfm standard port E heads with the new chamber either.
You could make a 700HP NA Pontiac stroker with those too.

It isn't a theory that the hp head is better. Only downside to them is possible hood clearance and valve cover to brake boost clearance issue. That's it, nothing else is a issue.

[slowbird]

Here Jake's cam card, Jake didn't have a lot of time on the engine, I'd bet he would have issues if he had more time on it. It's a pretty aggressive cam, lift/duration it up there.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by slowbird

It isn't a theory that the hp head is better. Only downside to them is possible hood clearance and valve cover to brake boost clearance issue. That's it, nothing else is a issue.

I sure wish someone would beat Mikes NA number with High Ports. No one has done it yet I know of.
You don't think the heavier valve requiring more valve spring pressure is a issue in a stock block ?

What I am trying to say is you can pretty much get whatever horsepower you want out of a E head with less issues.
Where the High Port wins is the very high effort stuff and there are very few of those.
If you want 800, 900 pump gas horsepower you can do it with E heads. Very few want more than that.
I bought my High Port so long ago the wide ports were stuck at 370-380cfm.
The big power E heads were not even invented yet.
And the ported std port E heads were 330cfm at best so I bought the High Ports .
Hey, at least you can get High Ports right now. Not sure you can even get Edelbrocks newest Pontiac head at the moment.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

I sure wish someone would beat Mikes NA number with High Ports. No one has done it yet I know of.
You don't think the heavier valve requiring more valve spring pressure is a issue in a stock block ?

What I am trying to say is you can pretty much get whatever horsepower you want out of a E head with less issues.
Where the High Port wins is the very high effort stuff and there are very few of those.
If you want 800, 900 pump gas horsepower you can do it with E heads. Very few want more than that.
I bought my High Port so long ago the wide ports were stuck at 370-380cfm.
The big power E heads were not even invented yet.
And the ported std port E heads were 330cfm at best so I bought the High Ports .
Hey, at least you can get High Ports right now. Not sure you can even get Edelbrocks newest Pontiac head at the moment.

Leech is a very special case and even he planned to step up to HP heads, if they weren't better why would he switch to HP heads?
List all the 900hp pump gas e-heads that are out there, please
And no I don't think valve weight is an issue in low rpm builds.

[Formulajones]

900 hp pump gas na with e- heads?

LOL

Only Pontiac I've seen top those kinds of numbers on pump gas had Bischoff's RAV head on it.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Leech is a very special case and even he planned to step up to HP heads, if they weren't better why would he switch to HP heads?
List all the 900hp pump gas e-heads that are out there, please
And no I don't think valve weight is an issue in low rpm builds.

I know of at at one pump gas 900 HP e head combo, but that 900HP NA category has to be a short list with any head combo. It is a 541 CID with what he called a Semi wide port E head. He is a friend of mine and a member on here. John Krull. What ended up killing the engine was he started out at 15 compression with some serious head milling, he thought the heads deck surface was flexing too much. It kept spitting out head gaskets and was hard on everything when it did it. It ran longer with the 11:1 compression but not a lot longer. I had a sound clip of it idling and it sounds wicked considering it was a 541!

X2 .That cam spec’d by Scott Brown looked like it was pretty aggressive for it’s duration and lift in a stock block. Hard too tell how aggressive though just looking a cam card. Usually though with that .012” tight hot lash and higher lift combo, I would agree, pretty darn aggressive.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I know of at at one pump gas 900 HP e head combo, but that 900HP NA category has to be a short list with any head combo. It is a 541 CID with what he called a Semi wide port E head. He is a friend of mine and a member on here. John Krull. What ended up killing the engine was he started out at 15 compression with some serious head milling, he thought the heads deck surface was flexing too much. It kept spitting out head gaskets and was hard on everything when it did it. It ran longer with the 11:1 compression but not a lot longer. I had a sound clip of it idling and it sounds wicked considering it was a 541!

X2 .That cam spec’d by Scott Brown looked like it was pretty aggressive for it’s duration and lift in a stock block. Hard too tell how aggressive though just looking a cam card. Usually though with that .012” tight hot lash and higher lift combo, I would agree, pretty darn aggressive.

I've read about Krull engine, did he ever run that engine on the track? I tend to discount dyno numbers until there are also track numbers to go with them.
I wouldn't run Jake's cam in a stock unless I planned to replace it a lot, lol. Short duration and high lift usually side load a lot (I understand there's more to it). I plan to run that in an IA block on the street, I think it'll be ok in it.