[Dragncar]

What would be needed to build one. Would you need something more than a pressure gauge for instrumentation ?
I bet you would. What ?
Thinking about making one.
Have machine shop access and am a fabricator.
Something simple, think it might not be that hard to do.
Thoughts ?

[dataway]

Pressure gauge for sure.

If you want to "dyno" how much energy is used to turn the pump ... then it would get complicated. An electric drive motor of known efficiency that you could monitor how many watts it uses ... then convert to HP etc.

Or do you just want to compare pressure and flow? Then a pressure gauge, fixed orifice to build pressure, flow meter of some sort. And of course something to drive the pump.

Might take a pretty beefy electric motor ... my guess is an oil pump at full tilt probably consumes a couple hp.

For head to head comparisons it would be pretty simple ... how much pressure and flow at a given rpm. You could dispense with the flow sensor and time to fill a bucket.

To determine how efficiently one pump works compared to another you'd need to know the input power. Fairly "simple" depending on a person's breadth of knowledge. A microprocessor like an Arduino, or micro-computer like a Raspberry Pi could easily monitor and record the data via pressure, rpm and flow sensors (flow sensor would get a bit complex in this application).

[mysticmissle]

Just assemble your motor put an amp clamp on your 1/2 hp drill (electric ) an rpm sensor would be helpful and a psi guage I bet you would find whatever you are looking for

[Dragncar]

Not sure a drill would spin it fast enough to replicate a engine. Any drill will get you spinning fast enough to get pressure. I already have a simple jig I can put the pump in a bucket of oil and spin it with a drill and see how much pressure I get.
I am interested in when cavitation starts with different pickups. Oversized vs stock vs small 5/8 pickups. And maybe making a vessel where I can put the pump/reservoir under some vacuum and see how that effects cavitation. Maybe do it with a Shop Vac on the reservoir ?
I have a 2 hp Harbor Freight electric motor. Start with something like that. Have to be able to make it variable speed . With just enough electronics to make some graphs on a screen.
The wiz kid electronic genius(never seen anyone like him) can help me out with some of it. And he is a machinist too.
It will take time, in no hurry and have lots of other stuff that needs done.
I just think it would be a very interesting little project to tinker on and if I can do it without spending a lot of money all the better.

[mysticmissle]

Can I ask why? Do you have bearing issues? I know you put some time into a design you like only one way to find out if it works in real world application if you had no issues before and no issues now what have you really accomplished?
And verified or achieved a personal goal is perfectly acceptable fwiw

[Formulas]

Remember oil pump is turning half crank speed

most electric motors are what around 3450 rpm actual rpms will vary between manufacture and loads

i have a reversible pneumatic drill thats rated at 600RPMs that i prime with, can be a wrist buster iff your not prepared

[mgarblik]

We had our oil pump run on Bill Miller's pump dyno. It had graphing capability, the ability to measure pump RPM, flow in GPM, and pressure of course. It also had software to calculate percentage of cavitation at a given RPM. Turns out he was rather impressed with the Peterson R3 belt drive we were using. It moved 43 GPM at the speed we were running it at. Very little cavitation. You might want to give him a call and discuss your needs. Seems like there used to be a short video clip of that pump dyno in use on their web site. Not sure if it is still up.

[Gach]

Bill and I had long Conversations over his pump dyno, we ended up arguing over which cigar is best

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by mysticmissle

Can I ask why? Do you have bearing issues? I know you put some time into a design you like only one way to find out if it works in real world application if you had no issues before and no issues now what have you really accomplished?
And verified or achieved a personal goal is perfectly acceptable fwiw

Well, I have never spun a bearing per se. But they do not look perfect either.
What I am interested. is at what point will a Pontiac oil pump start cavitation. And how the different types of pickup effect it. How the inlet size effects it. I enlarged my current one a bunch.
I would like to see how it stacks up to a regular aftermarket pickup.
And how does a V pump effect where a Pontiac pump goes into cavitation.
If I can find that little blip in oil pressure in a Canton pickup like Luhn found.
I just think it would be interesting to do it. Take my time and mess around with it here and there. Might have to wait until I retire.
My new shop will have some cool stuff in it to keep me busy.

I put a lot of effort into my oiling system and I do not want to find out how good it is thrashing on my engine. Not really going to beat on it.
Well, maybe a little.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

We had our oil pump run on Bill Miller's pump dyno. It had graphing capability, the ability to measure pump RPM, flow in GPM, and pressure of course. It also had software to calculate percentage of cavitation at a given RPM. Turns out he was rather impressed with the Peterson R3 belt drive we were using. It moved 43 GPM at the speed we were running it at. Very little cavitation. You might want to give him a call and discuss your needs. Seems like there used to be a short video clip of that pump dyno in use on their web site. Not sure if it is still up.

I am sure talking to Bill about it would be interesting. I did call him up once and talk about this sort of thing.
He told me enlarging my pickup would raise the RPM where cavitation starts. And a V pump lowers where it starts.
But he is into stuff, Hemis with giant pumps and oil lines with gear sets larger than we can get.
I am only interested in a wet sump Pontiac.

[steve25]

A friend of mine who is no longer with us once attended a seminar by Smoky.

In the discussion on oil systems Smoky stated that bearings showing signs of distress. ( not from excess oil temp or detonation ) according to what he saw could be from pump cavitation or air mixed with the oil.
He found at that point in time that the best way to get the air out was to first not let it get mixed in right off the bat.
keeping the inside of the motor under vacuum, and he thought that doing such helped the cavitation issue some also.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

I am sure talking to Bill about it would be interesting. I did call him up once and talk about this sort of thing.
He told me enlarging my pickup would raise the RPM where cavitation starts. And a V pump lowers where it starts.
But he is into stuff, Hemis with giant pumps and oil lines with gear sets larger than we can get.
I am only interested in a wet sump Pontiac.

That is all true. He spent allot of time telling us we were crazy to run a Pontiac on 90% nitro, but after a few years, he knew we were serious. He was a tremendous help as well. My favorite Bill Miller Quote: The end of each season we would send in our 1.094" H11 wrist pins for inspection. One year I get a call from Bill. "Well I have some good news and bad news for you. The bad news is you bent all 16 of my wrist pins. The good news is your stupid Pontiac made enough power to bend my wrist pins!" That was high praise from Bill Miller. He sent us a set of Vascojet wrist pins. We could not bend those.

[Steve C.]

Bill Miller oil pump dyno info....

http://www.bmeltd.com/oilpumptest.htm



.

[Gach]

Humm, oil pump dyno sounds like a good idea, hell I’d be willing to invest in a project like that if the guy was qualified.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Gach

Humm, oil pump dyno sounds like a good idea, hell I’d be willing to invest in a project like that if the guy was qualified.

Sure you would. I thought I was on your ignore ? Since you do not run ported pistons or rings, do not run a V pump and think the Canton pickup is great it sure seems like you are here to take swipes.
"qualified" When is the last time you built a industrial hydraulic tank from scratch, mounted and aligned the pump with motor, installed filter system and return line ? You know, make the whole freaking thing with your own hands ?
Me, about 8 months ago, its kinda what I do for a living.
Its very close to what this project is.

[Elarson]

You would need to approximate the downstream restriction to get the flow rate correct. Also, you want to accurately model the flow split between the block and the pump bypass. Otherwise, running the pump could generate misleading results.

Here's a thought: build a motor mockup using a junk block and crank but with correct bearing clearances, lifters, restrictors, block passages, connecting rods, etc. Make a special shaft and adapter(s) to mount a C-face electric motor, driving into the distributor pad. You would need a variable speed motor that can run up to 4000 rpm (equivalent to 8000 rpm engine speed).

Then you could do accurate comparisons of pumps, pickups and pans in their installed condition.

FWIW,
Eric

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Elarson

You would need to approximate the downstream restriction to get the flow rate correct. Also, you want to accurately model the flow split between the block and the pump bypass. Otherwise, running the pump could generate misleading results.

Here's a thought: build a motor mockup using a junk block and crank but with correct bearing clearances, lifters, restrictors, block passages, connecting rods, etc. Make a special shaft and adapter(s) to mount a C-face electric motor, driving into the distributor pad. You would need a variable speed motor that can run up to 4000 rpm (equivalent to 8000 rpm engine speed).

Then you could do accurate comparisons of pumps, pickups and pans in their installed condition.

FWIW,
Eric

Well, that would make a little project a big-expensive project that took up enough room as a engine run in stand. Bill M or Luhn did not have a entire engine in the mix.
I am most interested in what is going on in the low pressure-inlet size.
I found 3450 RPM 120V 2HP motors on E Bay for 120$
https://www.ebay.com/itm/19590833765...ef3dd383266ed5
Need something to make it variable speed.

Attach it to one of these.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

12$. 5/8 shaft on electric motor. making the coupler should not be too hard.

[Mr Anonymous]

I am going to be replicating the simple rig my dad and I made back decades ago for checking the pump's max psi rating. It involved a neat little fixture that the pump mounted to, a 1/2" needle valve on the outlet side, and a pressure gauge mounted to the fixture. - and the whole thing fit neatly into a five gallon bucket which made the handling of the liquid VERY easy.