[Tim Corcoran]

All the OEM's have gone to hyd rollers and they go 300,000 miles trouble free for the most part, and they don't tick. The new Comp cartridge hyd rollers supposedly are using an OEM internal cartridge inside of an aftermarket body. So why are hyd rollers not suitable for the street? Is it the tie-bar setup? Does the new comp hyd rollers partially solve this issue? Why do the aftermarket hyd roller tick and the OEM's don't?

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by i82much

can something like a 290b6 make as much power as a road paver in your view?

A lot of power can be made with a SFT cam. Art Peterson years ago won a Championship using a SFT set up in a field that was almost all solid roller.

[Steve C.]

"the auto manufacturers began using roller cams back in the '80s to take advantage of the high-lift/short-duration profiles that flat-tappets can't accommodate, allowing manufacturers to increase performance without sacrificing idle quality, low-rpm torque, or emissions output."

"All of the Big Three's roller setups are hydraulic, though THEY ARE QUITE DIFFERENT THAN AFTERMARKET SETUPS."


https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/cc...ler-camshafts/



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[Tim Corcoran]

Steve, after reading the article you posted seems there is nothing new there. It doesn't begin to answer why the factory lifters are quiet and very durable for extended miles, yet the after-market/retro fit lifters are frequently noisy and unreliable. In a drag car with solid rollers for the most part it's not an issue because very low operating time. But I'm talking about hyd rollers. I'm aware the tie bar set-up plays a small part of the issue but not entirely.

[Sun Tuned]

The difference is likely the valve spring pressures.

Stock/oem Vs suggested aftermarket pressures.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by i82much

can something like a 290b6 make as much power as a road paver in your view?

It is hard just looking at numbers to say. But the 290-b-6 would need to be run with 1.65:1 or 1.7:1 rockers.

Stan

[Skip Fix]

Even the LS guys have to swap on better springs-sometimes even with stock cams! The SBC Fast Burn heads I picked up the dual springs for them had only 95 lbs seat pressure. Way lighter than most more aggressive aftermarket HRs recommend -like 150 seat.

[Jay S]

If you have a set of NOS Johnson SFT lifters with EDM oiling that should be a really good start on building a bullet proof SFT set up. If you want it more bullet proof have your lifters Cryo’d and the cam Nitrided. Really shouldn’t have issues with those lifters though even with no treatments. If you want a cam nitride you should contact Paul K and get a better cam than those cams mentioned, specific for your combo.

Modern stuff has bigger cam tunnels (50 or 55 mm)…let’s them run a lot bigger base circles that is easier on the lifters, longer ramps, and grinds that have more lift without as much lifter abuse.

I would expect that BBC example Skip mentioned with .782” lift has a 55mm tunnel.

Stock grinds that go 300k miles have gentle ramps and springs. Modern stuff with aggressive grinds like most retrofit sets can have issues even with their advantages. With big enough cam and you end up running link bars on them also. Most the LS engines I have been around have some sort of lifter noise after 120k miles, trouble free for the most part, sort of. A friend just worked on a couple colapsed lifters on a LS. I have tried to quiet some down with no lasting result. YouTube is full of fixing tutorials for roller cam problems on OEM pushrod HR engines.

Generally I think link bars cause problems when the lifter is dancing around because the lifter is trying to collapse on a HR cam, or the lash is too loose on a SR. FWIW

[Steve C.]

Certainly off topic but of interest. The engine Skip mentioned in his post #15 with a hyd roller and a .782 lift cam. That GM ZZ632 pump gas engine makes 1004 HP. It uses a Comp hyd roller ground to GM specs with 270/287 at .050 and a 113 LSA. It uses Chevy anti-pump-up Bowtie hyd lifters. Massive 2.450-inch titanium intake valves. The valves are controlled with stout ovate wire beehive springs with 175 pounds of seat pressure.


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[HWYSTR455]

Once a SFT or SR setup breaks in and is properly adjusted, you pretty much don't have to touch it for 1000s & 1000s of miles. It's a myth that it needs to be constantly adjusted.

Think about it, only wear would be the cause of requiring adjustment, and they (SR) don't wear that fast. And certainly wear less than a HFT.


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[locomotivebreath]

I just put an a 400 in service with a mild bullet hr that BES built in 2012 with what I’m assuming are morel lifters - they said bullet on the bars . I bought the cam & lifters around 2010 armed with the best info I had at the time and that was to go hr . I don’t have any real street miles as the car is just shy of complete , but it’s the smoothest running engine I’ve ever had and I can’t hear any lifter noise . I wanted to use the Crower 60243 back then but was spooked about all the hft failures - now here I am lol

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by locomotivebreath

I just put an a 400 in service with a mild bullet hr that BES built in 2012 with what I’m assuming are morel lifters - they said bullet on the bars . I bought the cam & lifters around 2010 armed with the best info I had at the time and that was to go hr . I don’t have any real street miles as the car is just shy of complete , but it’s the smoothest running engine I’ve ever had and I can’t hear any lifter noise . I wanted to use the Crower 60243 back then but was spooked about all the hft failures - now here I am lol

That is a good sign. As long as the lifters are quite you should be in good shape. What we've learned is if the lifters or a lifter makes noise it needs to be addressed immediately... Regardless of what the lifter manufacturer tells you.

[Steve C.]

Many threads on the subject of solid roller maintenance point to this one important thing: Regularly checking the valve lash. If the valve lash doesn't stay put, something is going wrong.
Do your homework regarding this important subject. That said, I agree with HYSTR455 comment made. it's a myth that valve lash needs to be constantly adjusted.

In addition to this, the recommendation from many is to also keep an eye on valve spring pressure. Beyond the initial loss of pressure after run-in, once a spring loses pressure over time it can further deteriorate and lead to issues.
Again, I repeat, the lack of adequate valve spring pressure to control the valves is a potential KILLER.

On that subject. We check new valve springs at their verified installed height with their intended retainer in place using a Rimac machine BEFORE they are installed. NEVER trust the catalog specs !
Once this baseline pressure is known for the new springs we monitor the valve springs with a LSM brand on the head valve spring pressure checker, there are other brands but that is a very good one.
Just be aware these types of testers can vary compared to a bench tester like the Rimac machine. Therefore for us the on the head spring tester is used only for us to monitor the springs with use over time.

Solid rollers are a maintenance item. Currently my application is limited street use, no racing, so personally we check my valve springs once a year and at the same time we check the valve lash.

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[locomotivebreath]

I remember Tony talking about some oiling system mods on the Pontiac block - I don’t recall him elaborating - 10w40 and holds killer psi . it was broken in on the dyno with 30wt BP and everything went smooth .How fast do these tickers show up ? I’ve only driven it around the block , never got out of 2nd .

[turbo69bird]

If I was class racing I’d go roller if allowed. If not I’d run a solid flat tappet. Most of my cars have been solid flat tappet cars and had zero issues , rarely ever needed adjustments, and saved $$$ if I needed every ounce I’d go roller for sure the stock eliminator guys are trying to get rollers approved for older cars so that tells you right there they can’t find that extra power w out them. But w a regular car you can add lift and duration to Make that uo, they can’t

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

If I was class racing I’d go roller if allowed. If not I’d run a solid flat tappet. Most of my cars have been solid flat tappet cars and had zero issues , rarely ever needed adjustments, and saved $$$ if I needed every ounce I’d go roller for sure the stock eliminator guys are trying to get rollers approved for older cars so that tells you right there they can’t find that extra power w out them. But w a regular car you can add lift and duration to Make that uo, they can’t

I don't that it is about power. They are running so much spring pressure that some, but not all can not keep from eating cams and lifters.

http://classracer.com/classforum/sho...t=85341&page=1

Stan

[locomotivebreath]

When I was buying my parts , the FT failures were not really understood and if u didn’t go roller , you were asking for trouble . I sure didn’t need to spend that much coin at my power level but the motor has excellent manners and great vacuum . It made 420hp and 485ftlb through manifolds , everything else is stock 68 . So is that an attribute to the roller design ? I basically ended up with mild mannered RA4 power - heads did flow 230cfm .

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by locomotivebreath

I remember Tony talking about some oiling system mods on the Pontiac block - I don’t recall him elaborating - 10w40 and holds killer psi . it was broken in on the dyno with 30wt BP and everything went smooth .How fast do these tickers show up ? I’ve only driven it around the block , never got out of 2nd .

They may never show up. We have a LOT of engines out there with Morel lifters that have never had an issue and have a lot of miles. For thr past few years the quality of "good" lifters has progressively degraded. I'm hoping the new Comps work out well but for right now I'd prefer to stay away from rollers for a hi-performance street build. When a HR fails it can be catastrophic. If a flat tappet fails the damage is far less..... It's really pathetic we have this situation to deal with.

[Skippy597]

Ok great so it sounds like I'm staying with a SFT and probably going with the crower 60311.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

Many threads on the subject of solid roller maintenance point to this one important thing: Regularly checking the valve lash. If the valve lash doesn't stay put, something is going wrong.
Do your homework regarding this important subject. That said, I agree with HYSTR455 comment made. it's a myth that valve lash needs to be constantly adjusted.

In addition to this, the recommendation from many is to also keep an eye on valve spring pressure. Beyond the initial loss of pressure after run-in, once a spring loses pressure over time it can further deteriorate and lead to issues.
Again, I repeat, the lack of adequate valve spring pressure to control the valves is a potential KILLER.

On that subject. We check new valve springs at their verified installed height with their intended retainer in place using a Rimac machine BEFORE they are installed. NEVER trust the catalog specs !
Once this baseline pressure is known for the new springs we monitor the valve springs with a LSM brand on the head valve spring pressure checker, there are other brands but that is a very good one.
Just be aware these types of testers can vary compared to a bench tester like the Rimac machine. Therefore for us the on the head spring tester is used only for us to monitor the springs with use over time.

Solid rollers are a maintenance item. Currently my application is limited street use, no racing, so personally we check my valve springs once a year and at the same time we check the valve lash.

.

Yes, maintenance item, you need to check them in order to catch anything that might be going wrong. For me, initially, it was every oil change. Then, since after multiple times I didn't find any issues, I went to every-other oil change, and finally, I was only checking them like every 3rd of 4th oil change.

The grind I ran last for a long time was a Crower grind, and believe I used one step up on the springs from what was recommended by Crower.

The previous engine in the 442 uses Morel HR lifters, and that engine was sold at @ 30k+ miles, and to my knowledge has about the same put on it by the new owner, no issues.

I have one HR engine now with Morel's, and one SR, so will see how those go. But I'm not expecting any issues.

Usually, the HR ones that make noise are right off the bat. Ones that work right of the bat usually go the long-haul.


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