[boater bill]

Originally Posted by bulletpruf

Is the Torker a single plane? Any hood clearance issues with a stock A-body hood?

Thanks for the input.

Scott

Mine is the original Torker single plane I modified per the HO racing pamphlet from the 70's.
A Torker 2 or RPM would also be a good choice to feed your beast. I don't have any hood clearance issues with my 68 Bird with dropped air cleaner.

[lust4speed]

Don't have the heads cut until you actually measure them. 100 is a nice round number and I would want to insure that is what the chambers measure. Also, measure both heads since they might have received different clean up cuts in the past. The Rhoads lifters will increase your effective compression ratio since it will mimic a smaller cam at idle. Just my 2 cents, but I'd be shooting for a true 9.3:1 ratio.

edit: According to the Wallace website calculator, a change in compression ratio from 9.3 to 9.5 on a 450 horsepower engine will result in a whopping 2.6 horsepower increase.

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by boater bill

Mine is the original Torker single plane I modified per the HO racing pamphlet from the 70's.
A Torker 2 or RPM would also be a good choice to feed your beast. I don't have any hood clearance issues with my 68 Bird with dropped air cleaner.

Thanks, that's good input.

Scott

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

Don't have the heads cut until you actually measure them. 100 is a nice round number and I would want to insure that is what the chambers measure. Also, measure both heads since they might have received different clean up cuts in the past. The Rhoads lifters will increase your effective compression ratio since it will mimic a smaller cam at idle. Just my 2 cents, but I'd be shooting for a true 9.3:1 ratio.

edit: According to the Wallace website calculator, a change in compression ratio from 9.3 to 9.5 on a 450 horsepower engine will result in a whopping 2.6 horsepower increase.

Guy who I'm buying the heads from measured them at 100 ccs, but I'll double check when I get them home.

IIRC, a full point compression increase results in about 4% hp increase, so increasing a half a point (9:1 or so to 9.5:1) should get me 2% increase, or about 10 hp on a 500 hp engine.

Thanks

Scott

[Bill Eveland]

If you've read on any of the previous Crower 60243 cam threads more than likely it will need advanced 4 degrees. I used the short Mr gasket 2 degree offset key on the cam to do mine unless you have a good adjustable crank gear. My edelbrock mulitple keyway gear moved it 8 degrees in the advance position.

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by Bill Eveland

If you've read on any of the previous Crower 60243 cam threads more than likely it will need advanced 4 degrees. I used the short Mr gasket 2 degree offset key on the cam to do mine unless you have a good adjustable crank gear. My edelbrock mulitple keyway gear moved it 8 degrees in the advance position.

Haven't seen those threads. Is the 60243 not ground correctly?

Thanks

Scott

[Bill Eveland]

Yes, they are not ground correctly. Mine degreed in at 112 stright up and need to be at 108-109.

[bulletpruf]

Another cam option is the Comp XE274H - 230/236 at .050, .488/.491, 110 LSA, makes power from 1,800-6,000.

Should I run 1.5 or 1.65 rockers? I'm assuming 1.5, since that's the ratio that the cam specs are given for.

Thanks,

Scott

[bulletpruf]

Got the short block home last night. Nice looking stuff. Need to do some research on block prep. Have one of the more popular engine building books, but will also do a search here.

Thanks

Scott

[bulletpruf]

Some info from that I found here from a 10 year old post:


"Improve oiling? You know, there's just not a lot that really needs to be done to a Pontiac to improve oiling for street performance. Plenty of very strong Pontiacs running around out there with the oiling systems just as the engineers designed them.

That said, there are a few things you can do that certainly won't hurt.

First - remove all the casting flash in the oil drainbacks in the heads and around the lifter bores in the block. That will help oil drain back to the pan.

Second, modify the main bearing oil feed holes. If you look at the holes in the main bearings you'll notice they are significantly smaller than the holes in the block. The easiest thing to do is to take a small rat-tail file and lengthen the oil hole in the bearing along the groove until it's just as wide as the oil hole recess in the block.

If you're really brave, and prepared to do even more work, you can drill holes in the bearings to match the location and size of the holes in the block, but I feel this is overkill. That didn't stop me from trying it once though -

http://misc.willbaker.com/440engine/drilledmains.jpg

The reason the larger holes are offset some from the original holes in the bearings is because the original oil holes in the bearings are inline with the passages in the block that feed the cam bearings. The feed passages to the main bearings come down from the passenger side lifter galley at an angle, so I drilled new holes to be inline with the actual feed passages in the block. Like I said, this is overkill for a street engine. If you really feel like messing with this, elongating the holes with a file as mentioned above will get the job done. Be sure to thoroughly debur the bearing shell when you're done.

Third - block off the bypass valve in your oil filter adapter. Remove the small screw, spring, checkball and valve itself then either drive a small core plug in and stake it in place or tap the hole and insert a small pipe plug. If you keep your oil changed and use a quality filter you don't need or want that bypass there.

Fourth - thoroughly inspect your oil pump. This should be done on ANY new oil pump but I'm surprised at how many people feel they're fine to install right out of the box. Disassemble the pump and clean it thoroughly to remove any debris that might be present, especially around the check ball. Check the depth of the gears to the base of the pump, you don't want more than .003".

Fifth - chamfer the oil input hole in the block where the pump bolts up so that any small misalignment of the pump output hole to the block input hole won't present a restriction. On most pumps I've seen, the passage to the block through the pump body is cast, not drilled and not always round. You can also run a drill through this passage while you've got the pump apart to remove any restriction to flow imparted by the roughness or out-of-roundness of the casting.

That's about all I can think of for now. As mentioned, for a 99.99% street engine this is just about all unnecessary, but if you're like me, you do it anyway just to say you did..."

[72LuxuryLeMansLa.]

Originally Posted by bulletpruf

Some info from that I found here from a 10 year old post:


"Improve oiling? You know, there's just not a lot that really needs to be done to a Pontiac to improve oiling for street performance. Plenty of very strong Pontiacs running around out there with the oiling systems just as the engineers designed them.

That said, there are a few things you can do that certainly won't hurt.

First - remove all the casting flash in the oil drainbacks in the heads and around the lifter bores in the block. That will help oil drain back to the pan.

Second, modify the main bearing oil feed holes. If you look at the holes in the main bearings you'll notice they are significantly smaller than the holes in the block. The easiest thing to do is to take a small rat-tail file and lengthen the oil hole in the bearing along the groove until it's just as wide as the oil hole recess in the block.

If you're really brave, and prepared to do even more work, you can drill holes in the bearings to match the location and size of the holes in the block, but I feel this is overkill. That didn't stop me from trying it once though -

http://misc.willbaker.com/440engine/drilledmains.jpg

The reason the larger holes are offset some from the original holes in the bearings is because the original oil holes in the bearings are inline with the passages in the block that feed the cam bearings. The feed passages to the main bearings come down from the passenger side lifter galley at an angle, so I drilled new holes to be inline with the actual feed passages in the block. Like I said, this is overkill for a street engine. If you really feel like messing with this, elongating the holes with a file as mentioned above will get the job done. Be sure to thoroughly debur the bearing shell when you're done.

Third - block off the bypass valve in your oil filter adapter. Remove the small screw, spring, checkball and valve itself then either drive a small core plug in and stake it in place or tap the hole and insert a small pipe plug. If you keep your oil changed and use a quality filter you don't need or want that bypass there.

Fourth - thoroughly inspect your oil pump. This should be done on ANY new oil pump but I'm surprised at how many people feel they're fine to install right out of the box. Disassemble the pump and clean it thoroughly to remove any debris that might be present, especially around the check ball. Check the depth of the gears to the base of the pump, you don't want more than .003".

Fifth - chamfer the oil input hole in the block where the pump bolts up so that any small misalignment of the pump output hole to the block input hole won't present a restriction. On most pumps I've seen, the passage to the block through the pump body is cast, not drilled and not always round. You can also run a drill through this passage while you've got the pump apart to remove any restriction to flow imparted by the roughness or out-of-roundness of the casting.

That's about all I can think of for now. As mentioned, for a 99.99% street engine this is just about all unnecessary, but if you're like me, you do it anyway just to say you did..."

I'm far from being an expert engine builder but I will not be doing any of that with my new engine except for inspecting the oil pump for proper clearance.

Karl

[boater bill]

In researching my recent build, I found the prevailing thoughts now are to leave the bypass system working on the filter housing.
For my oil pump, I bought one from Ken Keefer aka the Pontiac Dude and had him blueprint it and install a pressure shim to get the pressure up a little from the rating of 60, but not so high as to cause bearing wash. Works real well for the same price as one from Summit.

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by boater bill

In researching my recent build, I found the prevailing thoughts now are to leave the bypass system working on the filter housing.
For my oil pump, I bought one from Ken Keefer aka the Pontiac Dude and had him blueprint it and install a pressure shim to get the pressure up a little from the rating of 60, but not so high as to cause bearing wash. Works real well for the same price as one from Summit.

That sounds like a good deal. I'll get in touch with P Dude.

Scott

[DevoBuzz]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

The 87cc heads offered by Kaufman and Butler will produce 10.3:1 compression with flattop pistons on a .030" overbore. Aluminum heads will tolerate - no, let's make that require, a full point higher of compression than iron heads. These out-of-the-box standard aluminum heads are going to out perform 95% of ported iron heads out there. And that other 5% didn't get there without spending considerable money.

This is some info I could use. Was going to get the stroker Eagle rotating assembly for my 400 with Edelbrock 87cc heads and 2802 cam. Compression comes out to about 10.25:1. Can I run that much compression on pump gas?

[David Jones]

What kind of pistons get you 10:25-1 with 87cc chambers?
10:25-1 with aluminum heads should be fine with 93 octane.

[DevoBuzz]

From JEGS:
-5cc flattop SRP forged pistons.

Pontiac 461ci Rotating Assembly

Compression Ratios:
11.5:1 with 75.2cc
10.4:1 with 85cc
8.5:1 with 111cc

http://www.jegs.com/i/Eagle/356/51400/10002/-1

Now of course SUMMIT says differently:
Piston Material Forged aluminum
Piston Style Flat top, with two valve reliefs
Piston Head Volume (cc) +5.00cc

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ESP-51400030/

From Eagle website:

NOTE! - compression ratio calculated assuming uncut block and .040" head gasket, 87CC head
part number engine CID crank rods pistons bore sizes comp. ratio price
51400 461-468 cast 4.2500" 6.800" H-Beam -6.0cc forged Mahle .035 .065 9.94 1718.75
51500 461-468 4340 4.2500" 6.800" H-Beam -6.0cc forged Mahle .035 .065 9.94 2093.75
51501 488-495 4340 4.5000" 6.800" H-Beam -6.0cc forged Mahle .035 .065 10.47 2093.75

http://www.eaglerod.com/index.php?op...d=33&Itemid=40

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by boater bill

In researching my recent build, I found the prevailing thoughts now are to leave the bypass system working on the filter housing.
For my oil pump, I bought one from Ken Keefer aka the Pontiac Dude and had him blueprint it and install a pressure shim to get the pressure up a little from the rating of 60, but not so high as to cause bearing wash. Works real well for the same price as one from Summit.

Got one on the way from P-Dude.

Thanks

Scott

[bulletpruf]

Did a bit of research on the intake - leaning towards a Performer RPM.

Still on the fence on the cam, but leaning towards something a tad smaller - maybe the Comp 268H - - 224/230 @ .050, 477/480, 110 LSA, makes power from 1,600-5,800. However, with a somewhat tight LSA, I'll have to check the dynamic compression ratio. I can also dial back the compression a bit if necessary, since I haven't had the heads milled yet.

Also think this cam should work with a stock converter and Ram Air exhaust manifolds. If I want to wake it up a bit, I can always swap the 1.5 rockers for 1.65 rockers.

Thanks

Scott

[bulletpruf]

Just ordered a timing chain and roller cam plate from Scott Sims - http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=390936

Also ordered Rocky Rotella's book on rebuilding Pontiac V8's (already had Jim Hand's book) - http://www.amazon.com/Rocky-Rotella/e/B004AQ78L4

Scott

[screamingchief]

Best cam choice I've seen mentioned thus far is the Crower #60243.

The deal with the ICL on the #60243 cam is NBD really,all cam installs should be degreed,no matter what brand of cam they are.

And IMO that cam wont need Rhoads lifters in a 455,the idle will still be pretty decent.

I'd stay away from the Comp catalog/shelf grinds myself.

If you want a cam from Comp,I'd recommend custom ordering one,that is after consulting with someone that knows what pontiacs prefer in regards to cams.

JM2¢ ~ FWIW

Bret P.