[Jay S]

Originally Posted by dataway

I'd bet about 90% of those shop builds are 100+ hp over stock figures and using pretty aggressive cams.

The demands on HFT components have increased, while the materials used have remained static, a logical consequence would be more failures.

I'd think if it was a matter of no one making quality lifters then failures would be universal, they would all fail within a few thousand miles. If it was only certainly manufactures then that would have become evident almost immediately.

I suspect it's a combination of demands being made on geometry and components they were never designed to withstand ... and I have a feeling a lot of clapped out old equipment is being used to machine these components ... how much high quality HFT cam grinding equipment is being made now?

I think the tolerances for lobe taper and lifter crown are way looser than they were 50 years ago. You get a cam with taper 0.0005 off, and a lifter with crown 0.0005 too low and combine them ... failure no matter how hard the lifter.

There is no cam manufacture out there now pumping out millions of HFT cams for OEMs that require a minimum failure rate .... so the quality slides, the machines are not worth replacing, the market gets smaller and smaller ... all this leads to sloppiness.

That is my thinking also. As for Butler’s 50% failure rate, all I have ever seen or heard of them recommending is Compcams XE grinds, which is not helping them. Those grinds are very aggressive, and are the most difficult of all hft’s to break in properly, the lifter contacts the lobe right to the edge of the lifter, and when the lifter is not machined all that well at the edge. It makes for very for troublesome break in’s.

I think companies push the performance of their lifter face grinders, they push as many lifters thru until it barely meets the minimum requirements for surface finish. Lifter face grinding seems to just get worse and worse. The lifter is not finished to the outside far enough, sometimes it is too rough, sometimes the machining is not even straight.

I have never lost a cam during a break in, a lot of people have though. For me, when a cam did fail, it was always in the first 3000 to 5000 miles, some at 10K looked like they could fail at anytime, but were still working. So when I hear a report that says the cam broke in, and all is well, I still am a bit skeptical. How much of the taper was lost during the brake in because the taper was poorly done on the lifter or cam, and or a component was soft? You simply do not know, and here lately since 2020 the machining and poor quality parts in general has been a dumpster fire. We don’t have time to tediously check everything either, so all I try too do is pick the best parts you can find or afford, and wait and see. Best you can do on a HFT is Nitriding, a good lifter finish, possibly DLC coating, and a profile that matches what your trying to accomplish with your engine combo.

[Formulajones]

Whether people realize it or not there really isn't a huge demand for flat tappets these days anyway unless you race in some form of a restricted class.
Rollers have been in use since the 60's in race applications and oems adopted it across the board in the 80's and that trickled into the car hobbyist shortly after. Hell there is hardly even a crate engine offered today that doesn't have a roller whether it's from the oem's or your favorite crate engine builder. Literally millions on the roads for decades so it just makes sense. Failure is such a small percentage, worrying about it is silly. Take the tiny sample size from this site. Probably the largest Pontiac community on the internet yet it might make up what.....less than 1 percent of the car hobby in general? You have to put things in perspective, not to mention some failures posted on this site were completely self inflicted and not the fault of a roller at all. Everyone wants to make a mountain out of a mole hill. The biggest reason people don't want a roller is simply the cost. It's an investment, especially these days.
After my son bought Johnson lifters for $1140 they raised their price to $1600. And I think that's where other people take a turn for the worst. Trying to find the cheapest deal out there doesn't usually pay dividends. You end up with reboxed crap that fails. You see it all the time with roller rockers on this site. No one wants to spend $800 for crower so they put cheap scorpions on then are pissed when they find pieces of rocker in the engine. Roller lifters are no different in the regard.

[tom s]

Why would a reseller want to sell $500 cam kits when they can push $1500 cam kits?Tom

[lust4speed]

The slope on a cam lobe and the taper on a lifter have a lot of margin for error. You need slope and you need taper but it's not rocket science. Now what does come up and bites you hard is lousy metallurgy. It takes a really soft lifter to produce this in 15 minutes on the break-in stand. This was at the start of the crisis and cams were failing one after another. I found that Crower components were holding up and the setup that replaced the failed assembly is 16 years old with 12,000 miles so far and holding up good. That was years ago and while things have gotten better most of the lifters supplied are still softer than what they should be. A soft lifter will take out even a really good cam once the wear removes the taper.

As far as flat tappet vs roller sales, I can make more money through volume of sales. I sell six flat tappet assemblies for every roller and my overall profit will be greater. Unfortunately, if I unethically reduce my costs even further by producing an inferior product my per unit profit increases substantially. Of course the inevitable comes up and bites me when the cheaply made product fails.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by tom s

Why would a reseller want to sell $500 cam kits when they can push $1500 cam kits?Tom

Any shop that cares about their customers should.

[Bill S]

I posted my lifter / cam failure two years ago. I had two lifters / lobe failures.
I did a complete teardown / clean / and rebuild with honing, new rings, bearings. Sent the heads out for refresh and new springs with pressure verified also.
I went with the HT2148 roller lifters and spider/dog bone setup. Cam, lifters, , spider kit, pushrods, dist gear about $1000.

My issue with this is if oil was the problem, how come ALL my lifters/lobes were not wiped out ? The other lobes had the taper and lifters still convex.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Bill S

I posted my lifter / cam failure two years ago. I had two lifters / lobe failures.
I did a complete teardown / clean / and rebuild with honing, new rings, bearings. Sent the heads out for refresh and new springs with pressure verified also.
I went with the HT2148 roller lifters and spider/dog bone setup. Cam, lifters, , spider kit, pushrods, dist gear about $1000.

My issue with this is if oil was the problem, how come ALL my lifters/lobes were not wiped out ? The other lobes had the taper and lifters still convex.

The oil isn't the problem... It's an excuse to get you off the phone.

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by tom s

Why would a reseller want to sell $500 cam kits when they can push $1500 cam kits?Tom

Can I hear an Amen?

[P@blo]

Has anyone heard how expensive a FT lifter casting tree is as part of the manufacturing process? A lot. And even cooling during the process is critical. The lifter companies became only concerned with face hardness and made the issue worse thinking they were improving processes. Hochimin trail stuff.

Anyway the gradual even cooling of the lifter casting tree is what makes a quality lifter with the lifter face cooling first. Sets the acicular carbide? to the correct depth on the lifter face. Can't remember the depth 0.0200"?. Then you are ready to machine the radii. Or so I was told.

Normal hardness is RC55-62?

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by Bill S

I posted my lifter / cam failure two years ago. I had two lifters / lobe failures.
I did a complete teardown / clean / and rebuild with honing, new rings, bearings. Sent the heads out for refresh and new springs with pressure verified also.
I went with the HT2148 roller lifters and spider/dog bone setup. Cam, lifters, , spider kit, pushrods, dist gear about $1000.

My issue with this is if oil was the problem, how come ALL my lifters/lobes were not wiped out ? The other lobes had the taper and lifters still convex.

My last post night help. The iformation was from an old man that knew what he was talking about. Right down to the location, Chicago.

What cam are you using with the 2148s?

[Bill S]

Originally Posted by P@blo

What cam are you using with the 2148s?

My issue was I already have the Harland Sharp 1.65 roller rockers which are actually a ratio of 1.69.
Off the shelf roller cams would put overall lift too high for my valve length, causing retainer /seal clash.

Here are my cam specs:
Flow Tech Induction (Ed Curtis) designed; Competition Cams intake lobe # 3052, EX #3053, 230/240 @ 0.050”, I/E lift both at .321”, lift @ 1.69 = .542. Lobe separation = 114 deg, installed at 111 deg
Event at 0.050” lift , Intake open 4.0 deg BTDC, close 46 ABDC, Exhaust 57 BBDC , close 3.0 ATDC

Thankfully I still had a Mopar offset key kit P/N 4286500 in my parts bin to degree the cam.

To use the HT2148 lifters, cam base circle must be at least 1.135” diameter, mine measured 1.189”.
My cam base diameter combined with the .321” lift, put the lifter oil band is at the correct location. My oil pressure is spot on. I believe a cam lift can be up to .340” with these lifters and the dog bones.
Higher lifts require careful check to ensure the engine lifter bore does not have a deep chamfer having the oil band exposed at max lift. Plus the dogbones need to be machined per 68hotbird’s thread.

I bought Randy’s lifter which he swapped out the lifter plunger wire retainer with a C clip for $240.

[Lee]

I didn't read all of this, but the cost difference between HFT and HR has closed some, due to the drastic increase in the cost of HFT cam cores. Most of the HFT cams for Pontiacs at Summit Racing are now over $200, some over $300. A few of the Summit and Melling cams are still under $200, but probably not for long.

[Skip Fix]

Ultradyne has some lobes SR with .556 lift with 1.5s.

[67Lemons]

Originally Posted by Lee

I didn't read all of this, but the cost difference between HFT and HR has closed some, due to the drastic increase in the cost of HFT cam cores. Most of the HFT cams for Pontiacs at Summit Racing are now over $200, some over $300. A few of the Summit and Melling cams are still under $200, but probably not for long.

Depends on your perspective about how much the difference has closed for HFT vs HR. On the Butler site their master camshaft install kits that include cam, lifters, springs & timing chain set are $889 for HFT & $1589 for HR, that’s still a $700 difference, while not double the cost it’s not that far off. In other words while HR cams make sense for some there’s still a pretty steep entry price for the peace of mind.

[Formulas]

I just pulled some solid EDM lifters out was rubbing one with a fingernail and decided it was to rough so i worked it by hand with 1200 wet dry with oil .... NO i didn't lose any crown the way i did it. even pressure on entire face twisting lifter and 1200 on a hard face would take purposeful time and energy to bugger it up

you can still see how deep and course the original grind was ... still need to clean EDM hole

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 67Lemons

Depends on your perspective about how much the difference has closed for HFT vs HR. On the Butler site their master camshaft install kits that include cam, lifters, springs & timing chain set are $889 for HFT & $1589 for HR, that’s still a $700 difference, while not double the cost it’s not that far off. In other words while HR cams make sense for some there’s still a pretty steep entry price for the peace of mind.

That gap tightens even more when you take into account what I mentioned earlier that I do with every flat tappet deal here, and that's nitriding the cam, which is another $150 to do, might be even more with todays prices. Then I also use a lube lifter option and those lifters typically cost double what a normal lifter costs, so you're looking at $300+ for those.

[P@blo]

Originally Posted by Bill S

My issue was I already have the Harland Sharp 1.65 roller rockers which are actually a ratio of 1.69.
Off the shelf roller cams would put overall lift too high for my valve length, causing retainer /seal clash.

Here are my cam specs:
Flow Tech Induction (Ed Curtis) designed; Competition Cams intake lobe # 3052, EX #3053, 230/240 @ 0.050”, I/E lift both at .321”, lift @ 1.69 = .542. Lobe separation = 114 deg, installed at 111 deg
Event at 0.050” lift , Intake open 4.0 deg BTDC, close 46 ABDC, Exhaust 57 BBDC , close 3.0 ATDC

Thankfully I still had a Mopar offset key kit P/N 4286500 in my parts bin to degree the cam.

To use the HT2148 lifters, cam base circle must be at least 1.135” diameter, mine measured 1.189”.
My cam base diameter combined with the .321” lift, put the lifter oil band is at the correct location. My oil pressure is spot on. I believe a cam lift can be up to .340” with these lifters and the dog bones.
Higher lifts require careful check to ensure the engine lifter bore does not have a deep chamfer having the oil band exposed at max lift. Plus the dogbones need to be machined per 68hotbird’s thread.

I bought Randy’s lifter which he swapped out the lifter plunger wire retainer with a C clip for $240.

Thanks for posting Bill and should update the other thread of your progress. If you would be willing to list the rest of the parts you used that would be great (springs, push rods, distributor gear, ect). I'm likely going to go this route on a 455 so the info would be really helpful. And will also be using the HS 1.65:1 rocker arms.

I think the retrofit is perfect for its intended purpose of modest lift lobes and thanks Jim Leheart for coming up with the idea!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAKTh3uWBrE