[78w72]

It was requested by another member to do a poll in a recent off the rails thread to see what others think about doing this, it was stated a few times that his engine is cleaner than anyone else on here because it was filled with 2 gallons of pure ATF and ran for 30 minutes... 2 different times.

I mentioned a few points on why doing that was not a good idea for the engine and even posted a link to a reputable oil company explaining some reasons, but was met with an "opinionated argument" as to why that is all nonsense because a “wise” mechanic told him to do it. Keep in mind, the old DIY way of doing this was to add about 1 qt of ATF to the existing oil and run it for a short time before an oil change, just like any other engine flush product, NOT filling the engine with 100% ATF and running it for half an hour.

Most members on here know a lot about engine oils and their additives, that ATF does not have, to protect against wear & extreme pressures such as cam/lifter wear as well as detergent additives that are much stronger than ATF since ATF isnt designed for internal combustion uses, its hydraulic fluid. There is no zinc/phos (zddp) in ATF and with all the fuss about cam/lifter protection, I was surprised nobody commented on that when it was mentioned, bet the cam and lifters loved pure ATF!

The poll is to vote for using 100% ATF in an engine. 1 qt of ATF diluted in the oil. Using a real engine flush intended for that purpose or products like MMO or seafoam etc & following the simple instruction on the can. or, just using a good oil and changing it as needed? Feel free to add any comments on the reasons using pure ATF is a good or bad idea.

[Elarson]

Good oil, change regularly, make sure the engine is thoroughly warmed up sometimes and avoid all the snake oil and tricky ideas.

JMHO,
Eric

[Elarson]

My most horrifying oil story of all time:

I was in a discount store buying oil. There were 2 other guys in the oil aisle...the newbie getting ready to do his first oil change and his expert friend. The expert was explaining that newbie should drain the old oil out, put the plug back in, then drive the car around the block to get the rest of the old oil out, drain again and fill with the new oil.

Eric

[srmmmm]

I've used Gunk Motor Flush in the past when lifter noise began to develop, but only because I knew the condition of the engine. In all cases, the vehicles had always received oil changes at proper intervals and the flush was done as a means to check for sludge or varnish build up in lifter oil ports. On my Chevy and Pontiac engines, there was a 50/50 chance that it would help. I found that lifter noise was more readily addressed with a heavier weight oil.

On the 1990 Mazda MPV I had with the 3 liter V-6, it always helped. The mini-sized hydraulic lash adjusters on that SOHC engine had oil feed ports that were too small and the least amount of build up would lead to the cam followers tap dancing when the oil was hot. So it was a flush with every oil change until a service bulletin authorized replacement of the adjusters with an improved version.

I would be hesitant to do a flush on an older engine without pulling a valve cover for inspection first.

[HWYSTR455]

Has to be a legitimate reason you would think of adding some type of cleaner to the oil, like a sticky lift or stuck ring, not general maintenance IMO. And, it's usually either a last resort or hail-mary. You can get lucky though.

ATF does have heavy detergents in it, so it does make sense, and it can work in some instances. But never use all ATF.

Oil additive packages are much better these days, and there isn't the same type of 'Quaker State' buildup as in the past. A lot of it is the additives, but poor change intervals and overheating, that plays a big part in buildup.

A-chunk-o-sumthin hanging a lifter or ring, that I understand attempting a hail-mary fix, like I said, you can get lucky, and have personally had luck with lifters.

MMO is basically a detergent additive package, so in theory, it won't really do any 'harm', but if it helps, I think it's base on a number of factors, and again will just say you might get lucky.

Now atf mixed with water, trickled down a carb while working the throttle, that can help with buildups and sticky valves. It's part of the basis of the MMO product success, can do crank case and/or in gas.

Still, I think most of the 'mystery' of any of the 'magic in a bottle' stuff is hype. Marketing. And targets consumers that aren't 'automotive savvy'.

It is cool though, and always gives me a chuckle, when I see people doing seafoam in an apartment/townhouse complex, on an import with a fart-can exhaust, fogging the whole area.

.

[TedRamAirII]

I cant see putting a quart in and just driving it, will hurt. Sludge needs to be dissolved gradually, just like it formed. I would use MMO and drive it 1K and do a oil change, then do it again. Cut the oil filter open and see what's going on. Not sure what to look at to measure progress. Peek at the oil filler hole in the valve cover?

[78w72]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

I cant see putting a quart in and just driving it, will hurt. Sludge needs to be dissolved gradually, just like it formed. I would use MMO and drive it 1K and do a oil change, then do it again. Cut the oil filter open and see what's going on. Not sure what to look at to measure progress. Peek at the oil filler hole in the valve cover?

Agree 1qt of ATF or diesel etc shouldnt hurt the engine but taking it easy while driving a short distance or idling since it does dilute the oils properties is a good idea... but the main point is ATF has much lower amounts of detergents as normal oils, so there isnt any reason or advantage to using it at any concentration over normal oil or other products designed to flush/clean an engine.

With the analysis results showing how low the detergents & all other additives are compared to oil, I hope this shows that using ATF to clean an engine is a flawed myth and using it full strength in an engine is not "wise" and will cause excessive wear that is just asking for problems.

Thanks to those who have voted so far.

[61-63]

Back in the 60s in my area guys would run 50% oil and 50% naptha for say 15 minutes on a lift, then drain it and put new oil and filter in. Never seemed to hurt any of their engines. But the deal to me is that no factory chassis book I have ever read says to do something like that, so why do it?

[78w72]

Originally Posted by 61-63

Back in the 60s in my area guys would run 50% oil and 50% naptha for say 15 minutes on a lift, then drain it and put new oil and filter in. Never seemed to hurt any of their engines. But the deal to me is that no factory chassis book I have ever read says to do something like that, so why do it?

Factory manuals werent written with high mileage or poor maintenance engines in mind. I dont think using a mild engine cleaner if needed & following the instructions is a bad thing or will cause any damage, seafoam for example is like 1oz/qt, that wont harm the engine or weaken the oil enough to cause harm for the short time its ran. IIRC seafoam uses 25-35% naptha along with other mild ingredients for cleaning.

ATF on the other hand has zero additives that engines need, even used for 30 minutes it is not protecting the engine at all, the cam/lifters are under constant full forces, literally grinding the surfaces against each other with no protection at all. Looks like using pure ATF is now being questioned by the guy that used it if it may be causing the current noises...

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by 61-63

Back in the 60s in my area guys would run 50% oil and 50% naptha for say 15 minutes on a lift, then drain it and put new oil and filter in. Never seemed to hurt any of their engines. But the deal to me is that no factory chassis book I have ever read says to do something like that, so why do it?

Back in the early '60 I worked in a gas station. You didn't have the cleaners you have today and the oil had nowhere near the additives it has today. Some of the things those old timers did would really scary some of you.

Stan

[jhein]

I had a friend who was part of our local Pontiac gang when I was a youngster. He would use straight diesel for a couple minutes to de-sludge motors. As far as I know he never killed a motor doing that, and it did appear to get a lot of sludge out, but I still never adopted the practice.

[tempest1964]

I have seen kerosene added to oil to clean a sludge filled motor. Cleaned it out pretty good. Can't speak to the long-term effects on the engine.

[Ram Air IV Jack]

Originally Posted by tempest1964

I have seen kerosene added to oil to clean a sludge filled motor. Cleaned it out pretty good. Can't speak to the long-term effects on the engine.

The Gunk motor clean came in a quart can and I used it at oil changes. It smelled like kerosine and a few people I knew said it was. Back in the 70's in Popular Science magazine, Smokey Yunick had a regular column about mechanics and cars. In one article he spoke and promoted Rislone as an engine cleaner. Yunick wrote, drain all the oil out and fill the engine with Rislone and let it idle for 30 minutes but keep an eye on it. I actually did this because I had some lifter noise in my 400 at the time. It worked somewhat but never did that again. Yunick was well known so I thought at the time this should work.

[Formulajones]

You'd be better off using a high quality oil and do a friggin oil analysis so you know when it's time to change it, get a better idea of the internal condition of the engine, the quality of the oil and filter your using, and then stick to the provided guide lines. It's not rocket science. You'd think people would want to do this considering how expensive it is to build an engine.

There was a thread recently where someone here was having trouble with a little antifreeze in the oil and eventually had bearing problems, and was unaware. From what I remember it was after an engine refresh he decided to do an oil analysis and to his surprise found there was still antifreeze getting into the oil and possibly causing bearing damage due to the high amounts of copper that were also found in the oil analysis. Hopefully he caught it early enough.

[jhein]

Sludge story unrelated to solvents.

When I was 16 I was at my best friends older brothers shop. His partner was doing an oil change on a poorly maintained car. The oil was thick sludge. So he got the idea of using his torch to heat the pan. He got a ear-to-ear grin when the oil started flowing out. As he was getting near the end, he got the flame too close to the drain hole. By that time the oil was barely trickling out. Next thing you know, there was a small explosion from the fumes in the pan. there was a bout 2 foot long flame that blew out of the hole. Singed his hair a bit and scared the crap out of him. Once we realized he was OK we all had a really good laugh.

[Johnny406]

In the early 90's I picked up a used and very nasty but cheap 400 SBC to get a friend's Chevelle running. I was advised by an older gentleman at the auto craft shop (Army base) to use 3 quarts of tranny fluid and 2 quarts of oil and to run the motor for 20 minutes (no load), let it completely cool for several hours, and repeat two more times. So much sludge and crap came out that I had to unclog the drain hole several times with a screwdriver to drain it all out.

That engine was very worn/tired but it was running when I left Ft. Carson to go back to Germany. He was changing plugs all the time because the valve guides were shot but...

Would I do that again today? Hell No but it did work(ish) for what it's worth...

[tom s]

I have been involved in a few boat sinkings,the engines were pulled ASAP and drained and they were filled with dsl fuel to the very top,drained and refilled with dsl to proper level.Got them running for a few minutes,drained and proper level of engine oil was put on,started and ran with no issues.FWIW,Tom

[78w72]

Im sure we all have "old days" stories, most are very interesting but as most say at the end of the story, they would never do that again today.

Feel free to post those stories but this thread is more about using any of the polled options today... & any comments related to using pure ATF in an engine and what that could do to the internals.

[tom s]

I would do the dsl again if I was unlucky enough to have to another sinking!Tom

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by tom s

I would do the dsl again if I was unlucky enough to have to another sinking!Tom

I always wanted to have a boat and name it "Unsinkable II"

K