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#141
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Im late the this party, but
Its the heads. End of story. Factory stock heads flow like my ported E heads. Let alone factory performance offerings which are still way cheaper than my heads and outflow them easily. Love them or hate them, you cant argue with how good the factory units are. Even the cheap ones. There is lot of icing on the cake too, as mentioned they are both newer and likely machines with improved processes, factory fuel injection is nice. Large aftermarket following, but at the end of the day from a cheap power perspective its all about those heads. Not to mention that even with the "Sloppy Mechanics" tax that has made junkyard LS based motors go up, its NOTHING compared to the prices for a mystery 455 that might be junk when you open it up. And thats just Pontiac. Try to find a 427 or 428 FE for what it would cost for even a desirable 6.0 LS motor. The Sloppy tax is nothing compared to the White New Balance Tax. I totally understand wanting to keep a Pontiac in a Pontiac, Ford in a Ford, whatever. I get it. "It doesnt look right", "The coil packs are ugly" I get it. Valid opinions. Where i get annoyed with these arguments is when somebody says "The LS motors arent that good" Yeah they are. They are really, really good. There is no reason your love of another brand, model etc should cause one to throw reason out the window.
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1967 Firebird 462 580hp/590ftlbs 1962 Pontiac Catalina Safari Swapped in Turd of an Olds 455 Owner/Creator Catfish Motorsports https://www.youtube.com/@CatfishMotorsports Last edited by RocktimusPryme; 11-30-2021 at 11:48 AM. |
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#142
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Quote:
The 'IF' I was talking about is that if you could get a comparable Pontiac engine, sitting right next to an LS engine, both in the same condition, which would you choose? And why? With no cost factor. Without the cost factor, most would pick up the Pontiac engine I would think. And the cost factor is not that much of a factor if you have to build either from the ground up. So you can't just say "It's cheaper to swap in an LS engine", it's just not true, or not all the truth. That's the point I'm trying to make. And then what if you want to go faster? The LS engine is a great engine, modern tech, modern performance, and for the money, it better be. There's enough bolt on stuff for 'classic' engines to still be competitive. The 'gap' between the two is not as big as most think, and that's on purpose, GM wants people to do the swaps, and promote the new stuff, it's good for them, it's good for business. Shoot, you don't even have to figure out any 'tune' on them, just pick one of the millions of builds and follow it. (Yawn) I like the LS engines, and was very close on doing 2 different swaps. But IMO, to do it 'right', it's not going to happen with a junkyard truck engine. And then when I compared costs, the classic engines were much more affordable, and with comparable or more power. .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#143
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https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/hr...der-head-test/ .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#144
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There's a reason that GM included "beauty covers" on LS engines...LOL
It's like engine makeup........... The woman that puts on an hours worth of makeup, and does her hair, because she don't look anything like the finished product when she jumps out of bed in the AM...
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Brad Yost 1973 T/A (SOLD) 2005 GTO 1984 Grand Prix 100% Pontiacs in my driveway!!! What's in your driveway? If you don't take some of the RACETRACK home with you, Ya got cheated |
#145
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As a first gen Blazer owner since 1985, I absolutely love your 1972.
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1976 LeMans B09 Freeway Enforcer, 455/M40 Smokey 1977 Trans Am, 400/M21 Black/Gold Bandit. 44K actual miles 2017 Sierra SLT 1500 Z71 4X4 2019 Canyon SLT Crew 4X4 |
#146
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#147
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"The CNC LS9 heads do away with the “swirl wing” and surpass even a CNC LS3 head with 322.7cfm at .600-in. lift on the intake and 218.2cfm at .700-in. lift on the exhaust."
https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...rted-ls-heads/ MAST offers an assembled pair of LS7 heads, ported to 305cfm, for $3800.00: https://www.mastmotorsports.com/coll...cylinder-heads Butler has a CNC round port E-Head offering that flows 340+ for $3295.00: https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...tegory:1394343 .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
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#148
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And I'm still not grasping your point. Picking one or the other is a cost factor, plain and simple. We can't speak "hypothetically" about what "IF" because that's just not reality. The reality is that Pontiac engines aren't sitting in bone yards with 60-70k miles on them just waiting for someone to buy it. That's the truth. If there were you could bet people would be buying them. But that's simply not our current state. The Pontiac engines people want haven't been made since 1979 (400) and 455's were gone after 76. Where are you going to find a low mile 400 or 455 just sitting in a bone yard?? One that runs, complete, and ready to drop in a car and go? If you do you better buy yourself a lottery ticket. Last edited by Formulajones; 11-30-2021 at 12:45 PM. |
#149
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That's really the problem. Brand loyalty causes blindness and narrow mind style thinking. That's just the way people are. Not just Pontiac but most any car group. I see it all the time owning several different brand cars myself. Very rarely do I ever run into someone that enjoys and can appreciate several different brands of cars for what they are.
Last edited by Formulajones; 11-30-2021 at 12:55 PM. |
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#150
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It's totally the norm, which is why I don't buy onto the LS lifter conversion for Pontiacs. All you have to do is Google 'LS lifter noise' or do a search on YouTube, and you will see how normal it is.
And no worries about not grasping the point, it's just that you can't make a cost comparison between a boneyard used engine and a fresh engine rebuild. It's complicated. .
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. 1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2 http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624 1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be |
#151
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It's just not cheap to build an engine correctly these days and there are no guarantees with it either. Then you have machine shop hang ups, and parts availability right now is absolutely ridiculous. That's what people are looking at. LS engines are sitting around most everywhere right now and not all that expensive. Dropped in and running is much cheaper than building a classic engine, and you usually get an overdrive with it to boot. Not saying that's what I would do (depending on the car) but that's what people are considering. That's the attraction. For the record, It's not that I find issues with the LS lifters a problem, because I don't, I simply don't buy into the LS lifter conversion because I just don't find it necessary when the retro stuff has worked fine for me for 30 years. People trying to reinvent the wheel. I just don't need it. |
#152
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I had a 2000 Silverado that starting having start-up engine slap around 50k. Called GM and they extended my engine warranty. The noise went away quickly after it ran for a few minutes. Kept that truck until 185k. Still ran like new. Never heard an LS with lifter noise.
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#153
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Is that kinda like the putting lip stick on a pig thing |
#154
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Oh yeah and at the end of the day.... LS engines are still "easy to beat"
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#155
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An intelligent person looks at LS3. lol
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/hr...er-heads-test/ I know it is hard.. just so hard.. lol |
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#156
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I have a 69 el Camino SS396, it has a 1978 truck 454, Th400 2.73 rear end. It has about 10,000 miles on it. It blew the doors off my old 64 Pontiac 462 ported 6x, 041 cam. I was driving the Pontiac my brother was driving my el Camino..
Chevrolet is the king and always has been. Once I accepted this, I enjoyed my Pontiacs even more because I didn't have anything to prove. I like how the cylinders on the Chevy are spaced evenly. The starter is on the passenger side to even out the weight. Interesting note, The 68 to 72 el Camino has a massive frame its called the A.O. Smith #1942 the only other car or truck that uses this frame is the 69 to 72 Pontiac Grand Prix Model J.. |
#157
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100% True, It's LS
Amazes me how many pro LSers there are that don't know why or wont say why.
That's when the biggest clue is right in their face.. LS LS LS With all the after market support we have for Pontiacs... That one item can't be bought off-the-shelf and best I can tell it can't be custom ordered. At least not now that Crane is gone. Clay |
#158
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I can handle being incorrect, but it annoys me that I cant find what Im misremembering. I got a new phone since then and I would have to redownload all those backissues, and then go through them. Which Im not going to do.
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1967 Firebird 462 580hp/590ftlbs 1962 Pontiac Catalina Safari Swapped in Turd of an Olds 455 Owner/Creator Catfish Motorsports https://www.youtube.com/@CatfishMotorsports |
#159
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Of course you picked the most expensive LS builder on the planet...lol
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1978 Black & Gold T/A [complete 70 Ram Air III (carb to pan) PQ and 12 bolt], fully loaded, deluxe, WS6, T-Top car - 1972 Formula 455HO Ram Air numbers matching Julep Green - 1971 T/A 455, 320 CFM Eheads, RP cam, Doug's headers, Fuel injection, TKX 5 Spd. 12 Bolt 3.73, 4 wheel disc. All A/C cars |
#160
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Yes, something like that would be sweet. Lol
The hot rodding guys, like most of the Good guys shows, do have it figured out how to make the LS pretty nice looking. The LS crowd seems to show up at our cruise in’s & shows looking like truck engines. Maybe to add to the original topic. There were just bare speedmaster heads on sale for $488 each here yesterday, 300 cfm is a piece of cake with those. Pretty cheap head platform too start with. I did a girdle for PMD engines, probably $400 ish with all the fasteners. Should move a stock 2 bolt block up to 800 HP. Doesn’t make sense to compare a LS to a PMD cube for cube in a N/A application. That like leaving the 300 lb football players in the locker and sending the cheer leaders out to play. Lol |
Closed Thread |
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