[71 Ventura II]

I just read an article that claims you should coat the lobes and bottom of the lifters with a dry silicone spray before applying the Comp camshaft lube. I've never heard of this before; if it works so well why haven't I heard of it, why doesn't Comp sell it, and where do you buy it? JD
Article: http://www.compcams.com/Community/Ar...ID=-1578676008

[engineer]

why do this?

[Cliff R]

It doesn't matter what you put on the camshaft for assembly lube, it's just needs something in place until you get oil pressure, then GALLONS of oil flow over the lobes from the lifter bores at speed. We build and ran-in engines for decades and never onces "scrubbed" a lobe on anything. We have always used HD tractor grease from TSC, the moly stuff, and dumped a quart of 15W-40 Rotella oil over the cam right before installing the valley pan and intake. The engine is pre-oiled, while turning it enough to see oil at all the rocker arms. This step alone will wash most of whatever you put on the lobes into the sump.

In the past couple of years, flat cam lobe failures are so common, we woln't even use one in any engine prepared here.

I suspect it's the lifters, and not the lubricant(s). A very well known engine builder, who has over 30 years of experience recently lost two cams in the same engine within 10 minutes of starting them up.

He wasn't sure why, so while the second cam was being "run-in" he quickly popped the valve covers off to see what was happening. He noticed a couple of the pushrods were NOT spinning. The engine was shut down, and low and behold the two lobes that coincided with the lifters that weren't spinning were going flat, QUICKLY.

A closer inspection of the lifters used showed that several of them were not crowned correctly.

I suspect that back when Johnson went out of business, quite a few lifters were sourced out. They may be "soft" as well as incorrectly finished? In any case, everyone is blaming the oil, break-in procedures, soft cam cores, etc, etc.

I learned recently that one major cam company will only warrantee their cams IF you use their lifters. They are buying them in bulk and re-machining them in house. Maybe they know something that we don't?.......Cliff

[grivera]

"I learned recently that one major cam company will only warrantee their cams IF you use their lifters. They are buying them in bulk and re-machining them in house. Maybe they know something that we don't?.......Cliff"

Would that be Comp Cams

[grandville455]

I use MPZ cam Lube...I did have a cam that went bad ,but i didnt use that stuff at that time and also the car wouldnt start right away so there was alot of cranking that was a few yrs back when i wasnt so smart,lol...

[Cliff R]

I think that it's Lunati, but the information was 2nd hand, and my memory is slipping some these days.

In any case, if you install a flat cam set-up, and the lifters don't spin, the lobes will "scrub" and go flat, no matter what kind/type of lube is used, or what particular procedure(s) are used for breaking in the cam......Cliff

PS: keep in mind that all of this information has been given to us by outside sources, some of them pretty reliable. I typically prefer to relay information from our own test results and/or experiences, so to date I haven't posted a lot of info on this particular subject.

FWIW, some of these sources are among the most experienced and knowledgable engine builders in this industry. They may stay quiet since they have turned loose a high number of engines with flat cams during this "crisis" period with the oil changing, lifters being soft/defective/not correctly finished, etc?

PSS: We "dodged the bullet" here by switching over to roller cams when all this cam failure stuff started. Liking all the side benefits from roller cams, we have no want or need to go back to flat cams, so it will not be an issue for any engines that we prepare here.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

I don't use the C.C. lube. I use the Crane moly paste. Haven't had any cam issues so far on breakin.
If ya do use a flat tappet style. 2000 rpm min for 1/2 hr and fire immediately. No continious cranking trying to figure out why it won't fire.

I recommend hyd roller cams now-a-days. Not that much more considering that most are using aftermarket rods & pistons anyway so cost isn't an issue. More power with better idlebility.

[steve]

i am starting to get a little nervous. i will be breaking in my first poncho motor as soon as i get the last few little issues worked out. what i have learned so far is:

1. use break-in oil

2. lube the cam and lifters

3. prime the motor with a drill

4. if the motor does not fire immediately abort

5. run the engine for at least 30 min no lower than
2000 rpm and no higher than 3500

6. watch pushrods for spin

7. change oil after break-in (and filter)

please give me any other tips or warnings so i dont
ruin the 400. maybe i should tow it to a shop for break-in ?
i am not too proud to ask for help but would they even do it ?

[BVR421]

Steve first of all I have one cam failure to my credit so you can take my advice for what its worth.
you asked about having a shop do the breakin. Imagine you are a shop owner and someone who has installed a new motor or new valve train comes to your shop and wants you to be responsible for startup/breakin even though you had no part in the assembly. I dont think I would want any part of that deal if I were a shop owner.
I dont think your 20-30 mins has to be all at once. You can stop and start again if you have to. The breakin basically needs a ton of cooling oil flooding everything while the iron parts agree to rub each others high spots down gently. Hence the fast idle speed to keep the flow of oil as high as possible. For instance most breakins are done in the home garage and its easy to get overheated so in the past I have shut down about 210º and take a 30 minute break and restart. As you mentioned immediate starts are a must with no cranking. That usually means using a distributer and carb that you know is already working perfectly.
Things I have found to help overheating while in the garage are having the car facing out with the door open. A garden hose to trickle water over the front of the radiator, yes I know it makes a mess who cares? You will want to check for spinning pushrods at least once and that will definately make a mess. I have good luck using folded red rags over the rockers to stop them from spitting oil over my shoulder.
Once motor starts I usually stick a matchbook or screwdriver blade in the idle adjustment to hold the throttle open to 2000. Screw in the idle speed adjustment screw or Clicking on the high idle step on the choke will get you 1800 or so. whatever you want or have someone sit in the drivers seat and hold the gas pedal and watch the gauges. the speed will increase as the oil warms up. Then gently turn dist back and forth to find smoothest sound. That timing is usually right close to where it will end up when fine tuning later. Retarded timing will have it boiling over on cherry red headers in about 10 mins.
Everything goes easier and with less stress if the full exhaust is hooked up so you can hear odd noises and your wife is out of the neighborhood so she does not have to hear and smell the whole process. LOL
Once you have done everything humanly possible to do it right and its broken in you can check your new Crane cam and lifters and notice they have turned to junk in 30 mins or less. No wait that was me not you.

[440GP69]

Originally Posted by PONTIAC DUDE

I don't use the C.C. lube. I use the Crane moly paste. Haven't had any cam issues so far on breakin.
If ya do use a flat tappet style. 2000 rpm min for 1/2 hr and fire immediately. No continious cranking trying to figure out why it won't fire.

I recommend hyd roller cams now-a-days. Not that much more considering that most are using aftermarket rods & pistons anyway so cost isn't an issue. More power with better idlebility.

exactly, i don't use the thin red CC break in lube either and have switched to the grayish moly lube that stays on the cam!

[paint guy]

Breaking in a flat tappet cam motor requires ZDDP(zinc) in the oil to prevent cam failure.If you slather on EOS or any good equivalent,and use an oil with a high ZDDP content(Rotella still,to the best of my knowledge,has about 1200 ppm of zinc)and used GOOD lifters(GM are still the best,from what I've heard)you shouldn't have any trouble.FWIW, the last motor I installed and broke in,the builder insisted that I start the motor,run to about 160F @2000 RPM,shut off, cool, repeat to 180F etc until I hit normal operating temp.Then drive the car(normally)for about 500 miles or so to complete break-in.Hope this helps.

[Overkillphil]

After decades of breaking in flat tappet cams, I will only use roller cams at this point. The break-in crap alone is reason enough in my book. The oil/lifter/cam/whatever issue just makes it a no brainer. Money shouldn't be an issue given the cost of re-re-re-doing things with flat tapped failures.

And to make matters worse, all this crap is making me studder too!

[71 Ventura II]

Originally Posted by Overkillphil

After decades of breaking in flat tappet cams, I will only use roller cams at this point. The break-in crap alone is reason enough in my book. The oil/lifter/cam/whatever issue just makes it a no brainer. Money shouldn't be an issue given the cost of re-re-re-doing things with flat tapped failures.

And to make matters worse, all this crap is making me studder too!

I hear you! I'm fast becoming a "Roller" fan in all applications. I can protest a Roller cam is definitely in my future! JD

[242177P]

Originally Posted by 71 Ventura II

I hear you! I'm fast becoming a "Roller" fan in all applications. I can protest a Roller cam is definitely in my future! JD

Attest. Sorry!

[lust4speed]

I fully agree with Cliff, and also suspect that the lifters are the main culprit. When you do everything correctly and have the cam coated in moly assembly lube and a pint of EOS in the oil and the engine doesn't make it through the 20 minute break-in cycle, it basically has to come down to defective parts. You can flip a coin on whether it is poor metallurgy or improper crowning - or both - being the failure point of the lifter.

After going for decades with no cam failures and then having two failures in a row from two different companies using their packaged kits, we are now only suggesting to our friends and club members that they go with Crower cams and either Rhoads lifters if hydraulic, or Crower Cool Face if a solid. Last five engines are all running strong. I do this for a hobby to help friends so I can only speak for the limited number of builds I help with, but it sure seems the problem went away once we canned the white-box lifters. Not everyone wants to spend the money on the roller cam assemblies so I thought I'd interject what has worked lately for us.

[71 Ventura II]

Originally Posted by lust4speed

I fully agree with Cliff, and also suspect that the lifters are the main culprit. When you do everything correctly and have the cam coated in moly assembly lube and a pint of EOS in the oil and the engine doesn't make it through the 20 minute break-in cycle, it basically has to come down to defective parts. You can flip a coin on whether it is poor metallurgy or improper crowning - or both - being the failure point of the lifter.

After going for decades with no cam failures and then having two failures in a row from two different companies using their packaged kits, we are now only suggesting to our friends and club members that they go with Crower cams and either Rhoads lifters if hydraulic, or Crower Cool Face if a solid. Last five engines are all running strong. I do this for a hobby to help friends so I can only speak for the limited number of builds I help with, but it sure seems the problem went away once we canned the white-box lifters. Not everyone wants to spend the money on the roller cam assemblies so I thought I'd interject what has worked lately for us.

Thanks for the feedback, I'm going to run the Crower "CamSaver" hyd lifters that add 20-30% more oil to the lobes with the Comp XE284H w/1.65 rockers. I'm crossing my fingers this will work as the "ramp" speeds will definitely be "aggressive"! If we don't try living on the edge life gets boring right? LOL JD

[71 Ventura II]

Originally Posted by 242177P

Attest. Sorry!

LOL I think the correct terminology would have been "Proclaim" but I for some reason typed the wrong word. Or if you change the context of the sentence "Protest" could mean I don't really want to buy the higher priced parts but conceed to the inevitable safety of the roller setups? LOL Ambiguity is a weird thing huh? lol It's all good. JD

[taff2]

I groove the lifter bores,just a 0.030" cut using a sharpened tool steel 'pick' and a straight edge for guidance. Comp sells a tool for this purpose. This process ensures that the cam lobe gets a squirt of oil just before it contacts the lifter base.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by taff2

I groove the lifter bores,just a 0.030" cut using a sharpened tool steel 'pick' and a straight edge for guidance. Comp sells a tool for this purpose. This process ensures that the cam lobe gets a squirt of oil just before it contacts the lifter base.

The only problem possibly with this deal and a Pontiac oiling system is.............. The main feed runs the lifter bore before it reaches the mains. Taking away more oil to the mains could possibly limit the feed the further it gets away from the pump. Then it has to travel under #1 main, up to the front of the block and down the other side.
There is enough crankshaft whipping to lube the cam. If you have adaquate pressure at idle. Plus the valley is open to splash the cam from head drainage. Then with oil end drainage from the con rods, cam bearings, and lifter bores anyway.
Now if you had a dedicated oil feed systems. The rules change.

[Cliff R]

It will be fine as long as the engine is able to maintain oil pressure. We add a small hole in the rear gallery plug to oil the distributor, and another one in one of the front plugs to spray the timing set, etc, without any negatives. I wouldn't grind a big "flat" down the sides of the lifters blow the oil band, but a tiny scratch or groove in the bores to provide positive oil flow towards the lobes shouldn't hurt anything (my opinion).

Basically, there are a LOT of places that oil bleeds off after the pump, rod side clearance, around the lifters, around the cam journals, etc. The oil pump that the Pontiac engine uses is capable of moving plenty of oil that the total area of leakage at these points doesn't allow oil starvation to any critical areas.

I heard somewhere that the pump has over twice the capacity needed to supply the engine with oil at speed, but no way to confirm this. In any case, as Ken mentions, there is PLENTY of oil moving around inside the assembly for splash lube to the cam lobes/lifters, plus what is flowing down the lifter bores onto the lobes. One also has to consider that cam/lifter troubles with these engines was quite rare until recent years.

In the past 3-4 years, we can't log onto a webiste without hearing about someone wiping out a flat camshaft. We continue to read quite a bit of speculation as to why this is happening?

Some say it's "soft" cam cores.

Soft lifters.

Incorrectly machined/finished lifters.

Lack of trace metal particals in the oil.

Loss of/less contact area between the parts due to "modern" fast ramp lobe profiles.

Incorrect "break-in" procedures.

Insufficient lubrication at start-up.

Etc, etc. It very well may be a combination of one or more of these items? All that I know for sure, and the reason I commented on this topic in the first place, is that, IF the lifters don't rotate, the WILL scrub the cam lobes and fail in short order. It matters not what break-in procedure(s) are used, or the quality of your oil, or how much grease you get between the parts, etc. The lifters must rotate, stationary lifters indicate troubles between the lobes and lifter bottoms.

It's pretty easy to see the pushrods spinning with the valve covers off at idle speed. I'd add this to the list of things to do immediately after breaking in a new flat camshaft.

Another great feature of the factory Pontiac blocks, are being able to see the cam lobes after removing the intake and valley pan. With some makes the lifters have to be pulled to inspect them.....FWIW.....Cliff