[Bob Dillon]

Questions re: a new car and R134. I bought a new Bonnie in February, back when it was cold. As it warmed up in CA, I noticed the A/C didn't work worth a ****.
At my first oil change, the dealer service rep opined about "R135 ain't Freon, yadda yadda yadda," and I had to get rather testy (a specialty as I age) to get him to check it.
Sure as hell, no charge. A cracked fitting was blamed, replaced and the system was recharged.
It was almost 90 today, and I got lukewarm AC at best. This is my first car with R134; can anyone tell me if there is a noticeable difference in cooling between the two? This car, to me, exhibits all the classic signs of low charge, lukewarm at idle, chills down a little on the freeway, etc.
somebody fill me in here so the local service manager can lose about 3 pounds of rump roast soon. Other than this, love the car, tho.

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Jesus is coming again. Look
busy!

[Bob Dillon]

Questions re: a new car and R134. I bought a new Bonnie in February, back when it was cold. As it warmed up in CA, I noticed the A/C didn't work worth a ****.
At my first oil change, the dealer service rep opined about "R135 ain't Freon, yadda yadda yadda," and I had to get rather testy (a specialty as I age) to get him to check it.
Sure as hell, no charge. A cracked fitting was blamed, replaced and the system was recharged.
It was almost 90 today, and I got lukewarm AC at best. This is my first car with R134; can anyone tell me if there is a noticeable difference in cooling between the two? This car, to me, exhibits all the classic signs of low charge, lukewarm at idle, chills down a little on the freeway, etc.
somebody fill me in here so the local service manager can lose about 3 pounds of rump roast soon. Other than this, love the car, tho.

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Jesus is coming again. Look
busy!

[Guy Mazza]

Bob, You just described my wife's 99 GMC Safari Van (4.3L) to a tee. That is also a pretty common problem at the body shop I work at. Customers will bring their car back (usually during 100+ deg. San Fernando Valley summers).Best anyone can explain r134 is not as "efficient",yadda,yadda,yadda...There aint nothin like R-12!!!!!($$$)
Hasta la bye-bye, Guy - O.P.R.A.

[Cobrabill]

R-134- a PROVEN corrosive and carcinogen.R-12-nothing but theories.Yep,it's been done to us AGAIN!

[Bob Kazian]

R134 in a new Bonneville should cool very well. Most new rental cars that I have driven will freeze you out if left on MAX cool.
My opinion is that the cars designed for R134 refrigerant cool as well as older R12 cars. I'm not so sure that 134 works as well when retrofitted to an older R12 system.

Bob Dillon: I would recommend that you go back to the dealer and insist on a fix. Drive another Bonneville and see what it does.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

It's not as efficient, but they increased capacity in other areas to make up for it. Oh BTW, After owning a 98 GMC dually now for 3 years they fnally kicked me out of the dealership & not allowed to go back. Found this out. Make sure your dealership in NOT privately owned & completely independent as if they can't fix it & you bitch to much. They can tell you to leave & refuse to work on it, even if under warantee. Finally fixed it MYSELF for $400.00's after they had 6 attempts. Called GMAC hotline to find this out. Made the mistake of listening to promises past the lemon law time. Will be my last purchase from GM and I have bought a bunch of new cars over my lifetime. Had the same problems with a new 94 T/A & them. Shoulda learned my lesson then. Quality and service really sucks nowadays at dealerships. Parts replacers, not trouble shooters anymore. How about this; They put hose clamps on the driveshaft to get rid of a vibration in the rear, was still there. At least I have some spares!!!or they said the reason the valve stems aren't lined up to put air in them ( hidden behind the outside rim) is so the tires are MATCHED for balance, BUT the vibration was STILL there. What a bunch of freakin dorks! Hate to say it but Ford Turbo Diesel dually next time. better quality. Too many satisified friends have them. http://sites.netscape.net/pontiacdude428/homepage

[Scott Misus]

I have to agree: GM ain't what it used to be. When I needed a truck for my business, I took a look at the GM underpinnings on their 1 ton trucks and then took a look at
Ford's. The Ford won, hands down. I concluded that the GM interiors are crappy also; they remind me of an early 80's Chevette that my wife used to drive when we were dating. I sat in a '99 Vette yesterday and took a close look at the seats; they screamed "1984 Chevy Cavalier". Total junk.

[mike nixon]

what we were told at the dealer and from what i've seen there will be about 10 deg difference in the duct temp between r-12 and 134. what it sounds like is the old "this customer is a pain in the ass trick",bull**** him enough and he'll go away.
the sad part about the dealer techs these days is that the majority of them are young with no experience. most of the experienced help has moved on to greener pastures ie independent shops or clear out of it. they pay better[no flat rate to f@%k you with or better guaranteed wages] a little dealer experience goes along way towards the pay scale.
as for the truck i'd call gm customer service and raise holy hell. tell them they just lost a lifelong customer to ford because their service sucks. say you're going to take an ad out in the paper regarding their poor service and lack of concern for the customer . if you bitch long enough and loud enough they'll fix it or reimburse you. as for them [ the dealer]telling you to get lost: what we were told regarding warranty was that if you bought the vehicle from a dealer within 60 miles of your residence they were required to take care of the claim. ask if the tech was ase certified that worked on the truck, they are required to to have at least 1 ase cert tech employed to maintain a service dept. if they can't prove it turn em in. gm will reimburse you for repairs made outside of the dealer if you raise enough stink, i've seen it done.
i hope this book sheds some light on both subjects.
by the way ford's putting out one helluva truck now.i think i'd buy one if someone else paid for it. mike

[This message has been edited by mike nixon (edited 06-02-2000).]

[Bob Dillon]

It's over at the dealership this morning. I hadda go into advanced arm-waving mode to get them to look at it. Shouldn't be a prob, I know the owner and have his cell phone number, I'll just harass him on the golf course until it works.

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Jesus is coming again. Look
busy!

[Ed Neasham]

I,also agree that the GM service now-a-days sucks big time. I bought a new (93)T/A. Noted during hard braking(not a panic stop, but just good agressive braking) the check gages light came on. When I did check I found that during the last stages of stopping my oil pressure dropped to dead ZERO. As soon as the car stopped the pressure rebounded to about 40 psi. Pretty obvious that the oil was sloshing to the front of the pan, like they forgot the baffling. Took it into the dealer and took the Service Manager for a ride. He agreed that it was STAR (S*** That Ain't Right). He then contacted Pontiac Engineering and was told "That's normal" (I still have a copy of the service order and the Pontiac reply). The Service Manager did tell me to keep the documentation so that if the engine expired because of oil related problems, I could make a claim.

Haven't been too concerned because it happend infrequenly, only for about 5 to 10 seconds and the engine isn't under load whan it happens. Pontiac also said that it might happen at hard cornering. I tried some autocrossing with it and that's about as hard corning as I want to do. Didn't see the light come on (but will have to admit, at that point, I really wasn't looking at the dash).

Back to the original question, the T/A has a "new" Refrigerant gas (assume it is R134, it is definately not R12 - dichlorodifluoromethane) and it cools great. This tells me that with a properly designed system and properly charged, it can work well.

Ed

[george kujanski]

FYI: Regarding R134 conversions

I recently read an article in the Air Force Research Laboratory about a new product called QwikBoost which is an additive to refrigeration systems to give a approx 6-10% improvement in cooling efficiency.
The product is a result of development to increase refrigeration system efficiency with the newer HFC and HCFC refrigerants. The article states the stuff is now available on the consumer market. (www.afrl.af.mil) Reference document PR-99-06

Regards, George

[Tom McQueen]

Well, from a system to system comparison a classic freon system will blow cool air sooner and it will be a little bit cooler. But I have 2 cars with the new systems (both imports. I havent bought a new American made car in 21 years) and in the desert heat of Arizona they cool very well. Conversions are a different matter. If the person converting a freon based system to the new refridgerant doesnt do it correctly, it will not blow cold air.

[David Holmberg]

I have 134 in my truck and my wifes car and both will freeze you even in South Florida. As for the Truck deal, I can't agree more. Ford trucks are great.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

94 T/A less then 60,000 miles: 3 heater cores, 3 window motors left, 1 right. Had pedal pulsation, so they turned the rotors, 6,000 miles later the pads wore thru the rotors cause they never said that they needed replaced, and had the balls to charge me for the pads. 98 GMC dually 454, Excessive lifter rattle on start up since new. Service bulletin: a non-wear item. Let me sell an engine with lifter noise on start up that rattles for a minute or so & see how long I stay in business. If I ever buy another new GM product, kick my $ss. I guess I look like a smuck, that they feed me all this bulls****. Don't answer that. It was a retorical question. Later. http://sites.netscape.net/pontiacdude428/homepage

[TinInjun]

Oh boy, time for my .02 cents.
I think the biggest problem with GM and their R-134a systems on the new cars is that, 1- they have a moron who knows nothing about vapor cycle air conditioning systems, 2- who makes 25 bucks an hour to service the systems at the end of the assembly line, 3- and who is protected by the UAW from losing his/her job no matter how many times he/she screws up, doesn't service the system correctly.
I just spent some time reservicing the a/c in my fathers brand new Buick LeSabre(only 3000 miles). I had to do this because it didn't work worth a crap. Once serviced correctly, the system works fairly good, not as good as a R-12 system, but good enough that it needs to be turned on low.
R-134a is not as forgiving as R-12. R-134a has a smaller margin for error when servicing than R-12. The moral to this story,,,, Long live R-12, the government has screwed us once again.

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"Run wild with an Indian, not with the crowd in a Chevy"
Check out my restoration at http://members.aol.com/jetmech15/gto

[This message has been edited by TinInjun (edited 06-02-2000).]

[Scott Misus]

Tin:

"The government" = OUR elected officials. Find out how they voted on matters such as this which you deem to be important, and let them know.

I've had 3 cars converted to R134 (basically a different coolant and oil) and all three worked fine. Not as cool on initial startup, but still enough for the center outlets to freeze my right arm.

The only reason I used R134 was the money. No other reason. $10/lb. vs. $50/lb. on a 4lb. system made the choice pretty easy.

[Cobrabill]

P-dude-I have a 2000 F-350 V-10 and a 2000 2500 Dodge Diesel Ram.The Ram is far and away the superior vehicle.The Cummins is making 300 hp and 700 foot pounds.All before 3 grand.

[TinInjun]

<<"The government" = OUR elected officials. Find out how they voted on matters such as this which you deem to be important, and let them know.>>

Scott:
I have written our elected officials until I could not feel my hand anymore. You no what I got back each time? The same damn form letter. I even sent one that basically said "Is anyone there reading these letters" and guess what I got back, the same damn form. letter. You think they give a crap about us, our little hobbies, and what we think? Hell no, the only think they give a crap about is if they can get their sorry asses re-elected so they can suck even more money out of the american tax payer. How many other jobs in this country can you vote on weather or not you get a raise or not? I don't know of any other than Congress.
Aw heck now look what I have done, worked myself all up again. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Time to quit.

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"Run wild with an Indian, not with the crowd in a Chevy"
Check out my restoration at http://members.aol.com/jetmech15/gto

[David Holmberg]

Some friends I raced with, one had the ford v-10 and all it did was suck gas, the dodge pulled great just too loud, the ford Power stroke was best overall. Almost forgot..... MY DOORS.

[Bob Dillon]

Just got it back from the dealer. After enduring some complete mumbo-jumbo about Freon vs. R134, it at least blows cold now. I guess we'll see.

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Jesus is coming again. Look
busy!