#21  
Old 06-22-2024, 08:18 AM
steve25's Avatar
steve25 steve25 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Westchester NY
Posts: 15,043
Default

The change and resultant improvement in post #11 is why for any car ( even a duel purpose vehicle) intake system averaged air speeds have be thought about carefully and that FPS number guided by what the power band will need to be.

Itís been shown that the highest peak HP takes place with an intake system air speed of 350 FPS for a short moment in time..
Consider the fact here that with the best NA conditions ( 14.7 psi ) that at 5000 rpm it takes .006 seconds to fill a cylinder to even just 100% VE makes it clear that moving air fast as can be tolerated is important!

Many top Indy motor designers for a while now consider that a intake system peak air speed of 450 to 470 FPS working best for there needs.

Cylinder heads need to be sold sold not only with stated air flow numbers, but with intake port air speeds with different CID motors under them.

So many folks with money invested in aftermarket heads they have that can flow over 320 cfm are far from really using the power potential there heads have.

__________________
Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!

1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set.

Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!

Last edited by steve25; 06-22-2024 at 08:28 AM.
The Following User Says Thank You to steve25 For This Useful Post:
  #22  
Old 06-22-2024, 09:40 AM
Skip Fix's Avatar
Skip Fix Skip Fix is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Katy,TX USA
Posts: 20,726
Default

Craig any difference using the Northwind?

Steve 25 I think standardizing velocity is going to be difficult. Many good shops don't have the probes -or time- to do that. Then there is the different areas of the port that have different velocities-where is the "standard spot"?

__________________
Skip Fix
1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
  #23  
Old 06-22-2024, 10:09 AM
steve25's Avatar
steve25 steve25 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Westchester NY
Posts: 15,043
Default

You can get a really good picture of what’s going on even without having a velocity probe, this takes a good amount of math and also having a lot of previous experience / time in probing ports.

Like you know finding the velocity thru a given port area is easy once you have a few numbers in hand, but it’s what happens when that air mass goes around any kind of bend or pinch point where having the in hand probe experience pays off.

__________________
Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!

1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set.

Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!
  #24  
Old 06-22-2024, 10:43 AM
i82much's Avatar
i82much i82much is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,876
Default

has anybody tried 3d printing a pontiac intake?

  #25  
Old 06-22-2024, 10:43 AM
Stan Weiss's Avatar
Stan Weiss Stan Weiss is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5,067
Default

In the cylinder head calculations which I have programed with David Vizard. The User has the option to enter the max air speed as a Mach #. If not, it is calculated. When calculated, what is normal (if everything is sized correctly) is somewhere around .55 Mach or about 620 fps.

Stan

__________________
Stan Weiss/World Wide Enterprises
Offering Performance Software Since 1987
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm
David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization - Cam Selection Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV
Download FREE 14 Trial IOP / Flow Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV/Flow_..._Day_Trial.php
Pontiac Pump Gas List
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_gas.htm
Using PMD Block and Heads List
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_pmd.htm
  #26  
Old 06-22-2024, 02:53 PM
Tim Corcoran's Avatar
Tim Corcoran Tim Corcoran is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Willow Spring, North Carolina
Posts: 4,803
Default

Stan
For a 4.18 bore and 4.25 stroke with 333 CFM Edlebrocks, 13.1 compression, a solid roller with 264/268 dur. @ .050 and .650 lift. At what RPM would it need to turn to justify a 1050 on top of a Victor? Is there a better manifold for this application?

__________________
Tim Corcoran
  #27  
Old 06-22-2024, 03:25 PM
ta man ta man is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Clinton,Ontario,Canada
Posts: 5,375
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Lamnas View Post
I'm not sure if you directed your statement to me or not, but if you're talking to me, we're not testing any Torker intakes, and the 3 we ARE testing are (or will be) ported. There will be no out-of-the-box stock intakes tested. Pretty much everything Derek does is verified and validated by testing whether it's a flow bench or dyno. It's not his first rodeo, and it's also why I chose him for the work.
Derek ported a Torker 2 for me a few years ago and it was worth a solid .1 to .15 and 1 to 1.5 mph in the quarter mile. I'm currently at 127mph plus in the quarter mile with the same intake but it has been touched again by Dave Bisschop to match and open up the runners to my heads. This year I have a Northwind to test with..

__________________

466 Mike Voycey shortblock, 310cfm SD KRE heads, SD "OF 2.0 cam", torker 2
373 gears 3200 Continental Convertor
best et 10.679/127.5/1.533 60ft
308 gears best et 10.76/125.64/1.5471
  #28  
Old 06-22-2024, 04:19 PM
locomotivebreath's Avatar
locomotivebreath locomotivebreath is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: northern kentucky
Posts: 453
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by i82much View Post
has anybody tried 3d printing a pontiac intake?
Iíve wondered this for awhile . A plastic copy of a 68-72 iron would be awesome .

__________________
When I wore a younger man's clothes
  #29  
Old 06-22-2024, 04:21 PM
Stan Weiss's Avatar
Stan Weiss Stan Weiss is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 5,067
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran View Post
Stan
For a 4.18 bore and 4.25 stroke with 333 CFM Edlebrocks, 13.1 compression, a solid roller with 264/268 dur. @ .050 and .650 lift. At what RPM would it need to turn to justify a 1050 on top of a Victor? Is there a better manifold for this application?
I don't have an exact answer for you. At SAE 607 Dyno Correction 1.00. 1050 SCFM is about 4800 lbs / hr. How much the engine wants is not only based on RPM but also VE.


Engine_Size_=_466.5748
Barometric_Pressure_=_29.9200__-__Temperature_=_60.00

Air_/_Fuel_Ratio_=_13.00000

_6100_-_RPM
__________________________________________________ _______\|/
BSFC_________________________________0.4100___0.43 00___0.4500___0.4700___0.4900
___VE%_____Air______Air______Fuel_____BSFC_____BSF C_____BSFC_____BSFC_____BSFC
__________kgs/s____lbs/hr___lbs/hr_____HP_______HP_______HP_______HP_______HP
_1.2742_0.60559__4806.375__369.721___901.76___859. 82___821.60___786.64___754.53

_6300_-_RPM
__________________________________________________ _______\|/
BSFC_________________________________0.4100___0.43 00___0.4500___0.4700___0.4900
___VE%_____Air______Air______Fuel_____BSFC_____BSF C_____BSFC_____BSFC_____BSFC
__________kgs/s____lbs/hr___lbs/hr_____HP_______HP_______HP_______HP_______HP
_1.2342_0.60581__4808.135__369.857___902.09___860. 13___821.90___786.93___754.81

_6500_-_RPM
__________________________________________________ _______\|/
BSFC_________________________________0.4100___0.43 00___0.4500___0.4700___0.4900
___VE%_____Air______Air______Fuel_____BSFC_____BSF C_____BSFC_____BSFC_____BSFC
__________kgs/s____lbs/hr___lbs/hr_____HP_______HP_______HP_______HP_______HP
_1.1942_0.60479__4800.002__369.231___900.56___858. 68___820.51___785.60___753.53

_6700_-_RPM
__________________________________________________ _______\|/
BSFC_________________________________0.4100___0.43 00___0.4500___0.4700___0.4900
___VE%_____Air______Air______Fuel_____BSFC_____BSF C_____BSFC_____BSFC_____BSFC
__________kgs/s____lbs/hr___lbs/hr_____HP_______HP_______HP_______HP_______HP
_1.1542_0.60252__4781.974__367.844___897.18___855. 45___817.43___782.65___750.70
_1.1742_0.61296__4864.834__374.218___912.73___870. 27___831.60___796.21___763.71

_6900_-_RPM
__________________________________________________ _______\|/
BSFC_________________________________0.4100___0.43 00___0.4500___0.4700___0.4900
___VE%_____Air______Air______Fuel_____BSFC_____BSF C_____BSFC_____BSFC_____BSFC
__________kgs/s____lbs/hr___lbs/hr_____HP_______HP_______HP_______HP_______HP
_1.1142_0.59900__4754.053__365.696___891.94___850. 46___812.66___778.08___746.32
_1.1342_0.60975__4839.387__372.261___907.95___865. 72___827.25___792.04___759.72

_7100_-_RPM
__________________________________________________ _______\|/
BSFC_________________________________0.4100___0.43 00___0.4500___0.4700___0.4900
___VE%_____Air______Air______Fuel_____BSFC_____BSF C_____BSFC_____BSFC_____BSFC
__________kgs/s____lbs/hr___lbs/hr_____HP_______HP_______HP_______HP_______HP
_1.0942_0.60530__4804.045__369.542___901.32___859. 40___821.20___786.26___754.17



Stan

__________________
Stan Weiss/World Wide Enterprises
Offering Performance Software Since 1987
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm
David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization - Cam Selection Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV
Download FREE 14 Trial IOP / Flow Software
http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV/Flow_..._Day_Trial.php
Pontiac Pump Gas List
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_gas.htm
Using PMD Block and Heads List
http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_pmd.htm
  #30  
Old 06-22-2024, 04:22 PM
tom s tom s is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: long beach ca usa
Posts: 18,909
Default

3D printing in metal is very expensive,takes a big cabnet.If you have a dry intake there are plenty plastics to use but that eliminates carbs..Tom

The Following User Says Thank You to tom s For This Useful Post:
  #31  
Old 06-22-2024, 04:31 PM
i82much's Avatar
i82much i82much is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,876
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tom s View Post
3D printing in metal is very expensive,takes a big cabnet.If you have a dry intake there are plenty plastics to use but that eliminates carbs..Tom
what about carbon fiber? could you dip the manifold in a gas-proof resin?

  #32  
Old 06-22-2024, 04:31 PM
DaleO's Avatar
DaleO DaleO is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Snohomish WA
Posts: 88
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by locomotivebreath View Post
Iíve wondered this for awhile . A plastic copy of a 68-72 iron would be awesome .
I'm curious why a 67 intake is not included?

  #33  
Old 06-22-2024, 04:48 PM
locomotivebreath's Avatar
locomotivebreath locomotivebreath is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: northern kentucky
Posts: 453
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleO View Post
I'm curious why a 67 intake is not included?
67 has the 1 year only heat passage in front of the primaries .

__________________
When I wore a younger man's clothes
  #34  
Old 06-23-2024, 12:21 PM
Dragncar Dragncar is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Humbolt County California
Posts: 8,453
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan Weiss View Post
In the cylinder head calculations which I have programed with David Vizard. The User has the option to enter the max air speed as a Mach #. If not, it is calculated. When calculated, what is normal (if everything is sized correctly) is somewhere around .55 Mach or about 620 fps.

Stan
I believe mine is 625 fps. So far the engine seems to run great. Just put a Magnaflow 300 pump on he with a test and tune this Friday. Big Bucks bracket race Saturday regular bracket race Sunday.
Been 4-5 years since she has been out to the track.
Going to go give those guys some.

  #35  
Old 06-23-2024, 12:40 PM
Cliff R's Avatar
Cliff R Cliff R is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Mount Vernon, Ohio 43050
Posts: 18,060
Default

A factory iron intake unless it's from a Super Duty 455 or had material added to it will be hard to open up and have enough sealing surface left for 325cfm heads (I'm assuming they are NOT the stock gasket size anymore).

For single plane intakes, especially with spread bore carburetors at least a 1" spacer is going be needed to get best numbers. Single plane intakes at the dyno sessions I've done did NOT fair well with Q-jets or TQ's. I'm guessing the huge secondary throttle plates sticking deep into the plenum area cause turbulence and distribution issues.

The first time I ran into this was using a Tomahawk intake on a very similiar engine topped with a late 1980's 850cfm Q-jet. The numbers were just WAY down on it. After a dozen or so pulls messing with timing and fuel curves we installed a Victor/Dominator instead and picked up nearly 100hp., Yes, that's NOT a typo.

So we put the Tomahawk back in place with a very well blended 1" custom spacer for it and tried the Q-jet again. It made within 10hp/12ft lbs torque of the VIctory/Dominator. So for that particular combination the Tomahawk intake was off nearly 90hp without the spacer under the Q-jet.

Jump ahead a couple of years and I did a similar test during a private track rental and swapped on a Tomahawk intake and Q-jet without a spacer on it and low and behold it KILLED ET and MPH. Then I put a 1" spacer on it, Q-jet back on it picked WAY up at every point on the run. Then I went one step further and installed my Holley 850 DP carb with the 1" spacer and ran the highest MPH of the day clearly showing that those intakes LOVE spacers on them AND throttle plates that are all the same size and depth.

So for the topic at hand here you may want to include spacers as part of the single plane intake testing and maybe even borrow an HP 950 or Holley 850DP carb to throw into the mix.........FWIW......

__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran!
https://cliffshighperformance.com/
73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile),
The Following User Says Thank You to Cliff R For This Useful Post:
  #36  
Old 06-23-2024, 01:17 PM
Dragncar Dragncar is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Humbolt County California
Posts: 8,453
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran View Post
Stan
For a 4.18 bore and 4.25 stroke with 333 CFM Edlebrocks, 13.1 compression, a solid roller with 264/268 dur. @ .050 and .650 lift. At what RPM would it need to turn to justify a 1050 on top of a Victor? Is there a better manifold for this application?
Well, I am going to find out at the track a similar question. 4.155 bore 4.25 stroke 359cfm High ports, 11.5 compression, a solid roller 265/274dur @ .050 and .731 lift.
Starting out with a HP 850 and have a modified 1050 to try.
Intake is a Victor 4500 with plenum work.
Only intake I think would be better is a highly modified Warrior like Paul has.
Good luck getting one.

  #37  
Old 06-23-2024, 07:34 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 11,047
Default

A dyno will tell ya what you want to know, or if you have time to track test.
Dad found interesting results that don't really follow any math formula

His 571, 4.750 stroke and 4.350 bore, over 700 lift cam and heads that flowed almost 360 cfm. Has a victor on it that bischoff ported. Bischoff did the whole engine actually.
On his dyno his 1250 dominator dyno carb only make 6 more peak HP than the little 950hp 4150 that I prepared. Actually the small carb made more average HP and torque over the whole curve. That made the smaller carb the obvious choice.

You'll just have to try it and see. Every engine seems to respond a little different.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #38  
Old 06-23-2024, 10:14 PM
tom s tom s is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: long beach ca usa
Posts: 18,909
Default

Edelbrock tried many non metal materials for 3D wet intakes and none would last for any amount of time and failures were catastrophic.Tom

The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to tom s For This Useful Post:
  #39  
Old 06-24-2024, 05:17 PM
65 Lamnas's Avatar
65 Lamnas 65 Lamnas is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2023
Location: Pontiac, IL
Posts: 178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff R View Post
A factory iron intake unless it's from a Super Duty 455 or had material added to it will be hard to open up and have enough sealing surface left for 325cfm heads (I'm assuming they are NOT the stock gasket size anymore).

For single plane intakes, especially with spread bore carburetors at least a 1" spacer is going be needed to get best numbers. Single plane intakes at the dyno sessions I've done did NOT fair well with Q-jets or TQ's. I'm guessing the huge secondary throttle plates sticking deep into the plenum area cause turbulence and distribution issues.

The first time I ran into this was using a Tomahawk intake on a very similiar engine topped with a late 1980's 850cfm Q-jet. The numbers were just WAY down on it. After a dozen or so pulls messing with timing and fuel curves we installed a Victor/Dominator instead and picked up nearly 100hp., Yes, that's NOT a typo.

So we put the Tomahawk back in place with a very well blended 1" custom spacer for it and tried the Q-jet again. It made within 10hp/12ft lbs torque of the VIctory/Dominator. So for that particular combination the Tomahawk intake was off nearly 90hp without the spacer under the Q-jet.

Jump ahead a couple of years and I did a similar test during a private track rental and swapped on a Tomahawk intake and Q-jet without a spacer on it and low and behold it KILLED ET and MPH. Then I put a 1" spacer on it, Q-jet back on it picked WAY up at every point on the run. Then I went one step further and installed my Holley 850 DP carb with the 1" spacer and ran the highest MPH of the day clearly showing that those intakes LOVE spacers on them AND throttle plates that are all the same size and depth.

So for the topic at hand here you may want to include spacers as part of the single plane intake testing and maybe even borrow an HP 950 or Holley 850DP carb to throw into the mix.........FWIW......
Gonna have this spacer on hand for the HSD.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Image 6-23-24 at 4.02 PM.jpg
Views:	86
Size:	41.6 KB
ID:	635846  

  #40  
Old 06-25-2024, 09:42 AM
Cliff R's Avatar
Cliff R Cliff R is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Mount Vernon, Ohio 43050
Posts: 18,060
Default

Haven't seen or tried one of those. I did test spacers, four hole, fully open, fully divided and a "modified" 3 hole or "semi-open".

The four hole and fully open were complete TURDS on dual plane intakes. The fully divided did fine, and the semi-open (much like the one Jim Hand shows in his book ran the highest MPH for all testing at the track. It did NOT however run quicker in ET. Quickest ET was with no spacer at all on my "modified" iron intake. I will add that it may have been the Shaker bases used to clear the hood. Raising the carb up 1" requires differnt Shaker parts, which I used for the testing. Not being EXACTLY the same parts may have flawed the testing a bit. Even so I found it remarkable that the factory intake with only one 1/4" thick open gasket on it outran everything else that was tested.

In any case when I tested taller intakes and spacers, and tried to use a shorter filter, or any type of "drop base" air cleaner assembly that moved the lid closer to the carb I lost power (ET/MPH). This required not using a lid at all, and making a custom air filter for the opening of the Shaker assembly. This makes me wonder how many folks go to taller RPM intakes, or intakes that require a drop base air cleaner and kill off more power and vehicle performance than they ever hoped to gain?

I also tested the K & N Xtreme lid, and it was a complete FAILURE. For some reason it induced a "stumble/hesitation/bog" going to full throttle on the starting line that would NOT tune out. Removed it or replaced it with a lid and the problem went away. Never did figure that one out but for sure my set-up absolutely HATED that part......FWIW.....

__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran!
https://cliffshighperformance.com/
73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile),
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:11 AM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017