[Cliff R]

Agreed, ALL of these engines are nothing more than 8 pistons moving up and down in 8 holes. I've done multiple builds of each type over the years, Ford FE, Windsor, Cleveland, Buick, Caddy, Olds, Pontiac, AMC, International, butt-loads of SBC and a good many BBC builds, Mopar Wedge small and big block, and to be perfectly honest not a lot of differences between all of them when you break it right down to the fundamental stuff.

What tends to throw folks off with Pontiac builds in the front cylinder being # 2 instead of #1. As is with the case right here folks pressing on pistons and inserting them in the holes get that entire deal FUBAR'd way too often than it should be happening.

That's why I mentioned "close attention to detail" in my first response. Nothing difficult about any of this, but you have to have enough common sense to put things back where they came from in the proper order and orientation....duh?

[i82much]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

I would respectfully disagree with a Pontiac being any more complicated or difficult in any way to rebuild than any other V-8 vintage engine. Most of us really like the 428 engine. It is a great one, but hardly rare. It was the BASE engine in all 69 Bonneviles. So there's 90,000 units. It was optional in all 1967-1968 and 1969 full size cars. So a reasonable estimate is 200,000-250,000 units? It's the same process to rebuild as any 326-455 Pontiac V-8 with the same costs involved. As mentioned in my previous post, with a good book, a good machine shop, and some basic builders tools, I just don't see any problem. The OP seems to have successfully rebuilt a three speed automatic transmission which IMO, is way more complicated than a gasoline engine.

not saying a pontiac is harder, just cheaper!

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by i82much

not saying a pontiac is harder, just cheaper!

That's for sure. In my classes, we can still build a 400HP SBC from a junk yard truck core for $1000.00 in parts. From a teaching standpoint, a SBC is very easy on the instructor. All of the machining equipment manuals and all the tooling is designed around a SBC. Those engines more or less rebuild themselves and are very forgiving. You can install the cam bearings any witch way, makes no real difference. With 17 head bolts, half of them can be loose or bottomed out in rust, really doesn't matter. They have so many damn fasteners, 25% of them can be too loose, too tight or missing and the stupid thing still runs. They are the perfect engine for an idiot or a rough beginner. I see your point.

[Cliff R]

The SBC like it or not is a superior design in just about every area. Starting with the block being case solid across the lifter bores for tons of support/strength, excellent oiling system, light valve train components, small bearing diameters, good bore to stroke and rod length to stroke ratios, and the average SBC head (discounting a few of the poor flowing smog castings and some later "odd-ball" Vortec stuff) has the cross section and flow potential to make big power without going into the aftermarket. Then when you do go into the aftermarket the choices are nearly ENDLESS and also considerably less money than other brands.

You will also find PLENTY of good cores and if you want to go to the latest design (1986-up roller blocks with one piece rear seals) they powered every truck, blazer, tahoe and suburban that left the factory to 2000 when the LS program started to replace them.....and....as mentioned a very "basic" 350 build will make 400hp without much effort and not dent to wallet all that hard........

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

This is the one you have been waiting for, a comprehensive detailed "way to build a Pontiac Engine" from the bottom, the up is done already, by the best on the PY forum. Look to learn something that you never knew before: "narrated by Mike", in real time. All are welcome and say what you want, here there are little rules, just have fun.

I don’t really see where Mike is asking for advice? I appreciate the rules though.

“The up is done already by the best on the PY forum?” Is that from the previous thread? So the best is knurled guides, stock two piece valves with a valve job, and umbrella seals? If that is the direction for the 428 short block rebuild it might be time for a LS junkyard swap. The LS section on PY could use some more traffic.

Wish you guys (Mike and Mike’s roommate the best of luck on this up coming New Years project. Happy new year! GiT R DONE!

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

The SBC like it or not is a superior design in just about every area. Starting with the block being case solid across the lifter bores for tons of support/strength, excellent oiling system, light valve train components, small bearing diameters, good bore to stroke and rod length to stroke ratios, and the average SBC head (discounting a few of the poor flowing smog castings and some later "odd-ball" Vortec stuff) has the cross section and flow potential to make big power without going into the aftermarket. Then when you do go into the aftermarket the choices are nearly ENDLESS and also considerably less money than other brands.

You will also find PLENTY of good cores and if you want to go to the latest design (1986-up roller blocks with one piece rear seals) they powered every truck, blazer, tahoe and suburban that left the factory to 2000 when the LS program started to replace them.....and....as mentioned a very "basic" 350 build will make 400hp without much effort and not dent to wallet all that hard........

Well, my brother and I did a sbc 350 awhile back for dirt cheap. He had several good 350 blocks. Found the one with the best bores. Bought some cheap used std TRW forged pistons on E bay and some 139$ 5140 press fit rods too. Bought some bare World Products iron 2.02 heads for under 400$ and some used Manley 2.02 undercut once piece valves for 50$ 150$ 1.5 roller rockers.
Polished a stock crank by hand.
Found a Weiand single plane intake for 75$ and I had a 750 DP carb for the deal.
We did buy a Crower sft cam from Ace at PPR that was 165$.
But this engine was not even bored. Since the stock 350 had cast pistons we were able to just have it ridged honed with tq plate and it cleaned up with proper clearance for the TRWs.
It has to have over 370 HP, maybe more with tuning. All for under 1200$ Never did get it dialed in before his slicks were worn out though, so it sits.
But you are not going to do that with a Pontiac, ever.
Its in a 84TA so at least is came with a sbc.
He wants to put a Pontiac under the hood real bad. He has a nice, complete 71 GTO 400 engine. I gave him a Eagle cast 4.25 crank and BHJ balancer. I have lots of roller rockers and cams ect I could donate.
But it will cost him a whole bunch of money to get it all done with a Pontiac and I doubt he will ever be able to make it happen.
I am trying to convince him to just run the chevy and have fun with it. The car has a 3 link with a 9", billet axles and my old N case with 4.10 spool. Nice T400 too, has one of my old converters thats perfect for a 455. Not so perfect for a 350 sbc though.
With the stuff he has he could find a sbc 400 truck block and build a fast and reliable bracket engine far cheaper.

His car does have the bolt holes for a 301 Pontiac, but when he finds out what that 71 GTO engine is worth he might sell it.
Better than not racing at all.

[OZZIEVILLE 67 2 door]

I'm always happy reading these threads for the good free advice.
I learn something new every time.

Sent from my SM-A426B using Tapatalk

[blueghoast]

Just remember to do some research and you'll be fine.
And never be afraid to ask questions about the brand your going to re-do.

GT

[Cliff R]

"With the stuff he has he could find a sbc 400 truck block and build a fast and reliable bracket engine far cheaper."

Stock 400 crank shined up with some 600 grit paper and a shoe lace, stock rods, light forged pistons, World Products Sportsman heads (untouched other than much better springs), Victor intake, 850DP carb, flat solid cam around 260-265 @ .050" on a 106LSA, stock points distributor (locked out) to trigger the 6AL box, stock $20 stock oil pump, $25 stock 3/4" wide timing set and into a good friends bracket car at 3400lbs race weight. Ran 6.50's @ 105-106 mph right off the trailer shifting at 5800rpm's.

Didn't even bore that engine, just a light clean up with a hone and pressed the pistons in my shop press heating the small end of the short 5.56" rods with a propane torch. A true "shoestring budget" race engine with excellent returns for the dollar spent.

He ran that engine for at least 10 seasons w/o touching it.

Unrelated to the 428 build in question here other than it'll take at least twice the money to build this 428 for half the return. Even so 428's are good starting points for a nice Pontiac engine build. They will make the power of the larger 455's with some compression and a little bit more cam in them, and easier on the internals at the same time.......

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Before I can pull the motor, I have to modify the Engine hoist, because the boom won't extend far enough toward the rear of the steering. The nose of the 1979 Pontiac TA is deep. One could consider this to be a mid-mounted Motor, the front of the timing gear is at the rear of the foot of the steering gear? Note: the question mark please. I have noticed from the start that the distributor has little to no clearance to the fire wall.

I tried to go in from the side and that did not work either.

I found a galvanized pole in the shed and it fit inside the extended boom and now sticks out enough, I hope, to pull the motor. We through bolted the new system and I braced the top with an additional chain that is bolted over the top, to stop any bending that could occur while lifting the short block, that I think weighs about 350 lbs. We painted the HD chain that I had in the shed, so that I may hang it on the original Hoists hook for negative lifts, for example: I install the Hoist on my car hauler and lift an engine block off the street in the future, while scrapping metal, a side job we do.

I have decided to take this Engine apart in my shed, but I still have to find the apparatus that holds the engine to the stand, the same stand that I modified to rebuild the trans. I have not seen that engine mount for the engine stand in years, it might have been in the van when the tools got stolen? I will have to shop for that part next. I am tooling up for the job and I believe that I have every tool to rebuild the 1967 Pontiac 428ci HO. If it needs boring then to the shop it goes and new Pistons it will get. I am not yet sure how much of a build this is going to be. I do want the experience of pulling it apart and keeping it in order as I do.

While the motor is out, we will be able to do an even better job detailing the engine compartment. I am curious about what color the Motor compartment came from the factory in 1979 Pontiac TA?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Agreed, ALL of these engines are nothing more than 8 pistons moving up and down in 8 holes. I've done multiple builds of each type over the years, Ford FE, Windsor, Cleveland, Buick, Caddy, Olds, Pontiac, AMC, International, butt-loads of SBC and a good many BBC builds, Mopar Wedge small and big block, and to be perfectly honest not a lot of differences between all of them when you break it right down to the fundamental stuff.

What tends to throw folks off with Pontiac builds is that the front cylinder, being # 2 instead of #1. As is the case, right here folks by pressing on pistons and inserting them in the correct holes, gets that entire deal messed up, way too often, then it should be happening.

That's why I mentioned "close attention to detail" in my first response. Nothing difficult about any of this, but you have to have enough common sense to put things back where they came from in the proper order and orientation....duh?

Mikes reply:

I would add this:

One can't just install the parts as they came out, especially in my case where Pistons are backwards and at least one Rod is as well. However, thanks to the forum, Mike has the heads up on that issue...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by i82much

If I were contemplating building my first engine, I would get a junkyard Chevy 350 and do a cheap cast rebuilder piston job. Learn how to measure and assemble. If that went well and after driving it for a few years, I'd sell the Chevy and try doing something like a 428 build. But no way I'd start off with something like a 428 block on my first build. Walk first, run later.

Mikes reply:

I see your point; however, I have experience with 5 times motor rebuilds and installations, plus one TH 400 Trans. build, that we just successfully built. I have never installed the Crank and piston rings etc.., But I believe we are ready for this new experience, I have the tools, might as well put them to work. A good idea would be to start the motor on the stand prior to the installation? Also, I see that Butler sells the entire kit, all I need to do is to choose the kit for me.

After we use the micrometer on the used parts, we would use plaster gauge for the crank and Rod journals, of course. This I will do in my own shop and then make some phone calls and get the forums input.

If the block needs boring, then the question is what Piston size to go with and what Journal Bearing size. Since I just bought the new Harmonic Balancer and Flexplate, I would stick with the externally balanced route. The machine shop needs to let me know if the Crank needs to be turned and if I need a line bore. Then what the bore size (if any) needs to be and I could buy the kit with a new rear main seal, of course.

Since the Heads were knurled, I could bring them back and get them redone with solid Brass stems installed and the exhaust valve bosses cut for their proper seals. As a matter of fact, since the Head Mechanic told me that he was cutting the Exhaust bosses back and changed his mind, because I did not know any better at the time, I feel he owes me that.

I read a book on building a small block chevy when I built my 327 ci that got stolen on my first build. I have been watching engine build shows for ten years, plus videos on You Tube.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Well, my brother and I did a sbc 350 awhile back for dirt cheap. He had several good 350 blocks. Found the one with the best bores. I bought some cheap used std TRW forged pistons on E bay and some 139$ 5140 press fit rods too. I bought some bare World Products iron 2.02 heads for under 400$ and some used Manley 2.02 undercut once piece valves for 50$ 150$ 1.5 roller rockers.
Polished a stock crank by hand.
Found a Weiand single plane intake for 75$ and I had a 750 DP carb for the deal.
We bought a Crower sft cam from Ace at PPR that was 165$.
But this engine was not even bored. Since the stock 350 had cast pistons we were able to just have it ridged honed with tq plate and it cleaned up with proper clearance for the TRWs.
It has to have over 370 HP, maybe more with tuning. All for under 1200$ Never did get it dialed in before his slicks were worn out though, so it sits.
But you are not going to do that with a Pontiac, ever.
Its in a 84TA so at least is came with a sbc.
He wants to put a Pontiac under the hood really bad. He has a nice, complete 71 GTO 400 engine. I gave him an Eagle cast 4.25 crank and BHJ balancer. I have lots of roller rockers and cams ect I could donate.
But it will cost him a whole bunch of money to get it all done with a Pontiac and I doubt he will ever be able to make it happen.
I am trying to convince him to just run the chevy and have fun with it. The car has a 3 link with a 9", billet axles and my old N case with 4.10 spool. Nice T400 too, has one of my old converters that's perfect for a 455. Not so perfect for a 350 sbc though.
With the stuff he has he could find a sbc 400 truck block and build a fast and reliable bracket engine far cheaper.

His car does have the bolt holes for a 301 Pontiac, but when he finds out what that 71 GTO engine is worth, he might sell it.
Better than not racing at all.

Mikes reply:

Before it's too late, have him search for an old Pontiac in the junk yard and pull the 428 ci motor.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by blueghoast

Just remember to do some research and you'll be fine.
And never be afraid to ask questions about the brand you're going to re-do.

GT

Mikes reply:

Research is the basis of my Pontiac experience over the last ten years or so, keeps me learning and I am not through, for example: "who would have thought that pistons could slap and could be installed backwards on purpose"?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"With the stuff he has he could find a sbc 400 truck block and build a fast and reliable bracket engine far cheaper."

Stock 400 crank shined up with some 600-grit paper and a shoe lace, stock rods, light forged pistons, World Products Sportsman heads (untouched other than much better springs), Victor intake, 850DP carb, flat solid cam around 260-265 @ .050" on a 106LSA, stock points distributor (locked out) to trigger the 6AL box, stock $20 stock oil pump, $25 stock 3/4" wide timing set and into a good friend's bracket car at 3400lbs race weight. Ran 6.50's @ 105-106 mph right off the trailer shifting at 5800rpm's.

Didn't even bore that engine, just a light clean up with a hone and pressed the pistons in my shop press heating the small end of the short 5.56" rods with a propane torch. A true "shoestring budget" race engine with excellent returns for the dollar spent.

He ran that engine for at least 10 seasons w/o touching it.

Unrelated to the 428 build in question here other than it'll take at least twice the money to build this 428 for half the return. Even so 428's are good starting points for a nice Pontiac engine build. They will make the power of the larger 455's with some compression and a little bit more cam in them, and easier on the internals at the same time.......

Mikes reply:

From a monetary perspective, "If I need to bore this 428 ci motor at all, would it be more cost effective to bore as much as I can and while using the "041" Cam and the existing Heads or is it more cost effective to go higher in Cam and Piston bore size, because it won't cost that much more to do so"?

P.S. The only limit I have is that the Heads are stock rebuild.

My original thought is to lightly build this motor and sell it to someone who needs a 1967 Pontiac YK code 428 ci HO stock as can be, as it has the "041" Cam installed.

Then I use those funds to buy or build a Pontiac Motor that is comparable to today's HP ratings.

In any case, this Engine is being rebuilt, to what HP rating is yet to be determined.

[grivera]

Mike - Unrelated but I have to ask- why do you write “Mike’s reply” before each reply post?

[78w72]

Why didnt pulling from the side work? Have done that many times on these cars if the puller cant reach due to the nose. Or, as a last resort can pull the nose if you cant figure out how to pull the engine from the side.

Extending the boom beyond what its designed for can risk other problems...

[mgarblik]

I see you have a "Chevy" book you referred to in a post. I would still recommend a Pontiac specific rebuild book like the Rocky Rotella book. Great resource. Engine family specific. Your machine shop should be capable of machining away the knurl they put in the original valve guides. If they didn't crack the guides trying to knurl them, new thin wall bronze liners can be installed. Low cost and easy to do.

[MatthewKlein]

Originally Posted by grivera

Mike - Unrelated but I have to ask- why do you write “Mike’s reply” before each reply post?

It's all part of the charm. I get a kick out of his replies.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Why didn't pulling from the side work? Have done that many times on these cars, if the puller can't reach, due to the nose. Or, as a last resort, you can pull the nose, if you can't figure out how to pull the engine from the side.

Extending the boom beyond what its designed for can risk other problems...

Mikes reply:

There is no way that I was disassembling the front end of this vehicle. The hoist did not reach from the front or the side, it is a one Ton "not" a two ton. The boom was too short to carry the load, in my opinion. What we did was to build for the future use when I use it with my other Trailers.

For example: when we needed scrap metal or lift something lower than the trailer. This lift will be able to negative lift from the flatbed trailer, off the street and then back on to a flatbed trailer. I added length to the existing short boom by adding a galvanized fence type pole to the overall length, that was in the shed and we added a chain over the top to carry the additional load. So, it won't bend while lifting a heavy load and it will be safe to work with. I will have photos soon.

We have a HD chain that we painted black as an accessory, plus extra hooks that we had around the house. I tend to over build than under build. We also spent the extra cash purchasing the engine leveler from Harbour freight. The total cost was $305.

P.S. We added additional shim metal at the two junction points, where the metal tube meets tube and the tube meets the pole pipe. No loose joints and it is fully disassemble-able.

The plan when finished building the Hoist is to lift the short Block and hold it in place so we can disconnect the Trans. from the Engine and place it over the motorcycle jack that we used before and then secure the Trans. to the jack with rope. We use a metal hanger and an empty soda bottle against the Torque converter to hold it in place, so we don't lose contact between them.

It is hard enough to get that right in the first place, especially when the TQ is non- bushed. For those of you that don't know the difference. My 1967 Th 400 has the larger Input shaft, that carries the Stator turbine within the TQ itself. One must spin the TQ in a CW direction and lift it, at the same time, to get it into the pump gear correctly. Once that is done you, don't want to lose that assembly, thus the reason to take care using the water bottle trick, that I learned at Trans. shop, from one of the mechanic's, on disassembly.