[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Anyone here using E85 as a fuel?
Triumphs, pitfalls and any links to good info appreciated.
I'm going carb, Q-Jet. If I can't work it out after a good try I may go EFI..... Rather do this old school with a carb.
Car is a very limited use weekender, 11.3:1 406, #48 heads(66cc). Crower 60919/VMax Rhoads camshaft.stock 1.5 rockers, likely 1.65 full rollers before it is fired. 4.10 RP.
Familiar with blend consistency requirements, but any knowledge/links shared are appreciated.

Luke

[68blackbird]

E85 with a Qjet? I haven't seen that before. I guess I would have thought the bowl is just to small for the additional volume of fuel needed.

[dataway]

Yep, I forget the ratio, but circle track cars running pure alcohol had barrel valves (jets?) about twice the size as an engine running gas. I would think you'd pump a Q-jet dry in a matter of seconds. Although, it's possible someone like Cliff could build you one that might work ... assuming ANYONE could.

[Cliff R]

I've provided rebuild and tuning parts for quite a few folks running E-85, and a good percentage of them are circle track racers. We figure about 30-35 percent more fuel required to do the same thing as gasoline. Our parts have been holding up fine, no failures anyplace that I know of. Haven't had a single complaint about sucking the bowl dry quickly or fuel delivery issues, etc.

There is a learning curve for E-85, and it will HATE a cold engine. Users have reported that the engine must be fully heat soaked to see full power/efficiency. Makes me wonder how much of the stuff "globs" up on the walls of the intake runners until the engine heats up some, and if any makes it's way past the rings and into the oil during the warm-up period......Cliff

[pontiac6269]

I have been running E85 in my .030 over, 670 headed, 455 with a Q Jet and iron intake for 8 years. Cold starts are like Cliff said, my oil stays clean, still looks new from when I changed it last fall. This engine has been in 3 cars, 62 GP, 69 GTO and now a 78 Cutlass that is strip use only. I use a in tank electric fuel pump, sending, hot wire harness and gas tank for a 87 Buick Turbo Regal. 1/2" lines tank to Robb MC regulator, 3/8" line to carb with a 3/8" return. I run about 9 lbs pressure at the regulator. Have to get a gauge at the carb.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Originally Posted by dataway

Yep, I forget the ratio, but circle track cars running pure alcohol had barrel valves (jets?) about twice the size as an engine running gas. I would think you'd pump a Q-jet dry in a matter of seconds. Although, it's possible someone like Cliff could build you one that might work ... assuming ANYONE could.

I believe that is with Methanol, familiar with it, ran it in the dirt late model for many years. Yes, Jets were about 2x what you would use with gasoline. The barrel valve is used with mechanical fuel injection, like a sprint car.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Originally Posted by pontiac6269

I have been running E85 in my .030 over, 670 headed, 455 with a Q Jet and iron intake for 8 years. Cold starts are like Cliff said, my oil stays clean, still looks new from when I changed it last fall. This engine has been in 3 cars, 62 GP, 69 GTO and now a 78 Cutlass that is strip use only. I use a in tank electric fuel pump, sending, hot wire harness and gas tank for a 87 Buick Turbo Regal. 1/2" lines tank to Robb MC regulator, 3/8" line to carb with a 3/8" return. I run about 9 lbs pressure at the regulator. Have to get a gauge at the carb.

Are you running 9# all the time, or decreasing pressure at idle/high vacuum? Care to share what specific regulator you are using?
What CR is the engine?
CAm?
I know I can do this and appreciate you sharing your experience.

The one thing I'm thinking is going to be hard is getting enough shot from the accelerator pump. All of the Holley carbs I have seen on circle cars on E85 have 50cc pumps front and rear.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I've provided rebuild and tuning parts for quite a few folks running E-85, and a good percentage of them are circle track racers. We figure about 30-35 percent more fuel required to do the same thing as gasoline. Our parts have been holding up fine, no failures anyplace that I know of. Haven't had a single complaint about sucking the bowl dry quickly or fuel delivery issues, etc.

There is a learning curve for E-85, and it will HATE a cold engine. Users have reported that the engine must be fully heat soaked to see full power/efficiency. Makes me wonder how much of the stuff "globs" up on the walls of the intake runners until the engine heats up some, and if any makes it's way past the rings and into the oil during the warm-up period......Cliff

From what I have gathered so far the tuning window on the main jetting is pretty wide. Methanol was the same way, getting heat in the motor was important for performance...and hard to do on cold days. I will be getting all my carb parts thru you, thanks for all your help with this engine project. I may run it on good gas first, then move to E85 later.
Would blocked heat riser ports amplify the cold bloodedness of an engine on E85?
It was pretty popular as a fuel at the circle track in our division, till the series came out with "spec" fuels. 91 no ethanol ($4)/gal and 110 Sunoco ($8/gal), and banned all other fuels, exotic and pump.

[Marv]

E85 is a big trend down under at the moment and straight up you should figure on needing 30% more headroom in your fuel system to use E85 over a comparable high-quality pump fuel. You will need to upgrade every single piece of fuel hose in the car to be ethanol-safe to avoid it breaking down and failing (comes apart internally, will clog up your engine). Also, it does NOT like sitting around - several of my friends find goopy deposits in their fuel rails/injectors/pumps from the E85 if it is left to sit for a few weeks at a time. And some have found it in their oil, though these are cars with pretty loose tolerances and big horsepower.

The way most people Down Under now run their E85 in an old car is with modern standalone EFI that also has a flex fuel sensor. So you go drive around and at the track on E85, let it get really, really low, then you fill the car with regular pump fuel for storage. Car is tuned to run perfectly on both, so that also means you can drive across country without worrying about needing to take jerry cans or drums of E85 with you. Another benefit is the ECU/flex sensor can read the ethanol content of the fuel you just put in so if the tank you just put in is actually E65 or E70 you won't risk running a hot sauce E85 or E100 tune when the fuel can't handle it. A guy i know had his Aussie Valiant hardtop at Drag Week this year (turbo 5.3 LS with a Haltech ECU) and they were down on power but couldn't work it out. When they read the logs they discovered the sensor was reading low ethanol count of approx 60%.. They put a fresh tank of E85 and it was mint - set a PB the next pass!

I am going flex fuel and injecting my Pontiac 400 using a Haltech Elite 750 ECU, one of their wideband kits and one of their flex fuel sensors. I'll post a thread about the combo once I have my new heads, intake and throttle bodies (going dual quad look)

[pontiac6269]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

Are you running 9# all the time, or decreasing pressure at idle/high vacuum? Care to share what specific regulator you are using?
What CR is the engine?
CAm?
I know I can do this and appreciate you sharing your experience.

The one thing I'm thinking is going to be hard is getting enough shot from the accelerator pump. All of the Holley carbs I have seen on circle cars on E85 have 50cc pumps front and rear.

9# all the time.
Robb MC Bypass Fuel Pressure Regulator – PN 1051, made gasoline/alcohol use.
Don't know the compression.
Comp 292AH-10 244/246@.050, .333/.340 lobe lift, 110 lobe separation.
I haven't had any problems with the accelerator pump shot.
My car has sits from November to April with E85 in the tank and have had no problems, also have friend with a 39 Hudson Terraplane that sits all winter with it and no problem.

[dataway]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

I believe that is with Methanol, familiar with it, ran it in the dirt late model for many years. Yes, Jets were about 2x what you would use with gasoline. The barrel valve is used with mechanical fuel injection, like a sprint car.

.. Yep, I think they called it Alky-methanol ... or pure methanol ... and Hilborn or Crower mechanical injection... I remember it smelled terrible, they'd use a ton of it, and it would run so cold it would almost cool the engine

[Cliff R]

"Would blocked heat riser ports amplify the cold bloodedness of an engine on E85?"

Yes, blocking them does the same thing for gasoline as well. My KRE heads don't have a crossover and my engine needs to be fully warmed up and heat soaked before I make a pass at the track or it will "lay down" or not pull nearly as hard on the run. I could do like a lot of others do and "flood" the engine with a super rich mixture to compensate, but that sort of defeats the purpose and makes repeating the scenario over and over again very difficult at any track outing.

For decades now I've whipped up on folks scores of times who try to do this when drag racing. I see them pushing their cars in staging, hood open, bug sprayers to cool down the radiator, etc, etc. They often do OK in early rounds when you have hours between runs, but if you make it to final rounds and the officials start "hot lapping" you back to staging for another pass, you are going to find it difficult if not near impossible to get things cooled down enough to repeat the last run you made 10-15 minutes ago....FWIW.

Not a big deal really, just pointing out a big problem I've seen with drag racing these cars over the years.

My own set up is raced at full operating temperature and well heat-soaked. Since the engine has no tendencies to run hot or overheat in any weather I can sit in staging with it idling right at 180 degrees in later rounds when we are making them pretty close together.

Anyhow......I also use an electric choke for cold starts. It takes 3-4 minutes before the engine will settle down and idle on it's own in cold weather, and a solid 10-15 minutes before the intake heats up enough so it runs like it should. It still starts instantly and drives fine until this happens, but if I had an exhaust crossover it would all happen much quicker.

Another thing folks don't realize is the cooling effect of the incoming air. Even in the summer months after 2-3 minutes of run time you can put your hand on the bottom portion of my carburetor and top of the intake and they are nearly ice cold! What happens at this point is that the cold incoming mixture of air and fuel hit the cold intake runners and the fuel comes out of suspension cause a lean condition. This is why a choke is needed until things warm up enough that the fuel stays in suspension and makes to the cylinders.

It's nothing but basic laws of physics, it REQUIRES heat to effectively burn a lean mixture. 12, 13, 14 to 1 or higher A/F ratios are well below the LEL at ambient temperature. They need to be heated up significantly to burn efficiently, hence why compression is required and a spark to ignite it. Nothing but basic stuff with reciprocating internal combustion engines, but for some reason folks seem to think keeping everything colder will improve this scenario. That's mostly propaganda from "hot rodding" stuff and nothing could be further from the truth. If you want maximum efficiency heat is your friend here, and I'm talking about engine temps, oil temps and temperatures of the associated parts, etc........

As it relates to this topic we are introducing a fuel that is harder to burn, contains less energy, etc. So steps are needed to effectively use it. I still see folks doing pretty good with it once they get thru the learning curve and nail down the tune, so it is a viable option for those that have it available. For myself it isn't on the table simply because it's not readily available here, and I've tuned my high compression engine for flawless performance on currently available pump gas.......Cliff

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

It's nothing but basic laws of physics, it REQUIRES heat to effectively burn a lean mixture. 12, 13, 14 to 1 or higher A/F ratios are well below the LEL at ambient temperature. They need to be heated up significantly to burn efficiently, hence why compression is required and a spark to ignite it. Nothing but basic stuff with reciprocating internal combustion engines, but for some reason folks seem to think keeping everything colder will improve this scenario. That's mostly propaganda from "hot rodding" stuff and nothing could be further from the truth. If you want maximum efficiency heat is your friend here, and I'm talking about engine temps, oil temps and temperatures of the associated parts, etc........

As it relates to this topic we are introducing a fuel that is harder to burn, contains less energy, etc. So steps are needed to effectively use it. I still see folks doing pretty good with it once they get thru the learning curve and nail down the tune, so it is a viable option for those that have it available. For myself it isn't on the table simply because it's not readily available here, and I've tuned my high compression engine for flawless performance on currently available pump gas.......Cliff

I realize that Twooldgoats (Jim) is "Old School", runs Methanol, and is just plain "OLD",
but you are not exactly young either Cliff.
Maybe you can explain the Physics to him sometime so that he understands that for maximum efficiency (Best Power) you DO NEED some heat in the combustion process.

Tom V.

ps Great post by the way.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Years of experience with Methanol. None with Ethanol.
Ethanol will be a learning experience. With Methanol if you didn't get the engine to run at ~190, and oil above 220, the oil would turn to a milkshake from lack of boiling out the condensate. We ran a single row rad and had 3/4 of it blocked most of the time to maintain engine temp while racing. The induction system cooling was pretty extreme. On a humid night the intake and carb would ice up heavily during a race and frost during warm up.
I'm thinking I'm going to like this stuff.
ANY advice from experience that shortens the learning curve for me is greatly appreciated!!
Carb is a very low mile, virgin 17056263, 3185, AJA, original to the vehicle.

Pulled it apart today, primary and secondary shafts are nice and snug in their bores!
My plan is to put a pump gas calibration in it, and move on to E85 if needed over the winter. Camshaft is per Cliff (thanks) to lower the DCR, squish will be .043". Intake is an early 70's iron unit. RARE manifolds.